Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:44:28 CST Hi list: I was preparing to wire a Mixture III chest to a pipe driver and thought I = should test it before cutting and lacing the wires. I discovered 4 notes that suddenly do not work, they worked before when I first got the chest, winded it and tuned the pipes. I haven't tried it since then, I think it was in November. It's a small unit chest that only plays the mixture III. = The chest is electro-mechanical, and when I took it apart (this was when I = first got the chest) and looked inside they were all Reisner 601 forty ohm = magnets with 1" valves. By the way, they all worked with the chest taken apart, too. The organ is on 3-1/2" of wind. When I apply an ohmeter to = the control wire and common, they all register around 40 ohms (both the non-working and working control wires measure the same). A small spark is = visible from both the working and non-working control wires upon contact with the hot wire. What's going on and can I fix it without taking all 183 pipes out and = taking the chest apart? Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at <http://www.hotmail.com>

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:RLC1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:19:41 -0500 Bart Kleineweber <prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>> asked about a chest that has suddenly developed some non-working notes. The number of non-working notes is proprotional to the difficulty of accessing the chest action! I saw this recently when visiting an instrument with a failing note on a bass chest. That chest had a front panel that was removable, but immediately in front of the chest was = another chest, containing an 85-note 3-rank mixture. It was *impossible* to = remove the failing chest's access panel without first removing all 255 pipes of the mixture and its chest. Bad design! Seriously, it is possible that a few of the electric valve units were adjusted marginally, such that they worked fine under previous conditions (temperature? humidity? phase of the mood?) but now are no longer quite able to open. The magnets need to be adjusted to have proper alignment of the armature and swinging arm, usually a very small overlap in the non-operating condition. With wind, the valves must open against pressure, and valves that will work fine on bench will sometimes fail in use. If the chest in fact worked fine before, as Bart mentioned, then perhaps the problem can = be ascribed to "maginality". His tests show that the magnet is getting energized. A simple test might be to fire the magnets with the wind = turned off. If you can hear the valves working, then you can feel confident that they need to be adjusted with a little bit more overlap in the rest position, so that they have a little bit more magnetic pull to counteract the effect of wind pressure. Another, more insidious, problem might be a finish on the bottom of the = toe boards that has gotten sufficiently "sticky" that some of the valves are, well, *sticking*! Good luck, Bart, and please let us know what you discover! Larry

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com <mailto:GRSCoLVR@aol.com>> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:59:51 EST Bart-----Heres another 2 cents worth. check your wind pressure to make sure it has not changed upwards Check your power supply/generator to make sure its around 10-12 vdc Regards, ---Roc

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Tom Dimock" <tad1@cornell.edu <mailto:tad1@cornell.edu>> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:13:43 -0500 At 04:44 PM 2/28/00 CST, Bart wrote: >What's going on and can I fix it without taking all 183 pipes out and = taking >the chest apart? Larry gave his usual thoughtful reply, and if you do end up having to dismantle the chest, his advice is going to be valuable to you. (Larry is a good freind and has helped me enormously with my organ) But what I = would do in your case is with the chest under pressure and the magnet powered, remove one of the afflicted pipes and use a small probe to poke down into the chest and "help" the valve to open. Will the magnet keep it open? If not, proceed to dismantling. No depower the magnet and then repower it. Does the valve work? If so, rejoice and move on to the next stuck valve. If not, try pushing the valve open without wind or magnet. If you can = feel resistance that suddenly gives way, the valve may be sticking to the = board. You may be able to resolve this by sprinkling a little talcum powder in (this may be total heresy - I'm no expert on organs, but do have a pretty extensive background in player pianos, where talcum is frequently used for this purpose). With a lot of luck you may be able to un-stick the valves without dismantling. Of course all of this advice is useless if there is any offset between the valve and the toehole.....

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu <mailto:jovanderlee@vassar.edu>> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:10:49 -0500 >At 04:44 PM 2/28/00 CST, Bart wrote: >>What's going on and can I fix it without taking all 183 pipes out and = taking >>the chest apart? Your problem reminds me of the "unexpected" that sometimes occurs when you think you did everything right. Wanted to add a Kinura to our seven rank Wurli, but had no space for the full length single chest. So we had the brillant idea of cutting a chest = in half and mounting the halves side by side. That meant creating new end panels for the cut ends. I made them very carefully to the right dimension out of 3/4 marine plywood, which is nice and stable, right? WRONG! The original sugar pine chest was modified during the during the summer. = It all fitted very nicely. New gaskets under the toe boards, etc. A few weeks ago we tried to fire it up and had no end of problems! Notes = on the end malfunctioning. Found huge air leaks under the toeboard ends! Strange because the gasketing was new and the screws were tight. Upon removing the toeboards we found that the plywood end panels were HIGHER than the pine side walls. Why? Because it is winter now, the air is dry = and the pine shrank and the nice stable plywood did NOT! Live and learn. We used an RTV filler for now, don't relish redoing that chest. John V

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com <mailto:Pipewheezr@aol.com>> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:24:57 EST Hi I don't have a solution for the dead notes,just a warning.The organ men = tell you not to place pipes untill the chest is winded and wired,and do = not place the pipes until you can do it on the wind.Meaning with the valve open,espicialy with reads you don't want chance of dust entering the = pipe.I have cleaned and vacumed and blown out chest's the placed the chest and = then the pipes and then wind and wired and had dust in the pipe on some .Not = fun.I have a 3-rank mix.on the shelf all clean not wired ot winded and the pipes = are in boxes near buy very tempting!!!!! Dennis

(back) Subject: Mixture Chest From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:46:53 -0500 John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu <mailto:jovanderlee@vassar.edu>> and Dennis Allen <Pipewheezr@aol.com <mailto:Pipewheezr@aol.com>> both mentioned some important things to consider. When building chests, watch out for wood movement. Solid lumber should be = arranged so that the movement is least likely to disrupt things, and sufficient good quality packing material (leather!) needs to be used to help bridge the gaps. Remember that a "flat sawn" board (what you usually = get) will move relatively little along its length and thickness but more along its width. Don't be surprised if a 10" wide board changes by 1/8" = or even more. Therefore, the end of a chest should probably be a board with its grain ("length") running across the chest; in effect, it is a continuation of the piece that makes up the side. It will then move the same way the side move, and so the top board will move up and down in conjunction with them both. Operating the chest without the pipes is a good way to get rid of dust and = also a good way to check that the valves have sufficient extra power to open against the wind pressure. When the pipes are in place, the toe hole = is in effect throttled down, and there will be some back-pressure, making it easier for the valves to open. If they open with no pipes present, = then they should work just fine with the pipes there. If not, at least you don't have to remove (and store!) the pipes while you fix the problems! Tom Dimock suggested the use of talcum powder. I believe it is a good = idea to brush and talc the valves before installation, especially if they are veterans. That gives you a good opportunity to examine them for bits of embedded crud or for other problems. (I was going to JOKINGLY suggest pouring talc into the blower intake, but I won't -- and didn't!) Larry Chace

Subject: Mixture Chest From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 14:19:58 CST I looked at my mixture chest again last night. All the magnet operated couplers were turned on at the console. When I turned them all off, the dead notes at the mixture worked again. Perhaps there was not enough current left over to operate some of the stubborn magnets.

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:47:14 -0500 "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>> reported (probably with much relief) that his pipe valve problem appeared to be due to overloading of the power supply. That is a good lesson, one that needs to be learned again and again -- the problem may well be a simple one slightly away from = where its symptoms appear. Pipe organs are good teachers. It also suggests a suitable motto for Home (Organ) Improvement: More = Power! Larry

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Dave McClellan" <drmc@speedfactory.net <mailto:drmc@speedfactory.net>> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:37:26 -0500 Larry Chace said: "It also suggests a suitable motto for Home (Organ) Improvement: More Power!" And I might add (and responded to Bart privately): MORE VOLTAGE. My instrument worked fine until I added an electromechanical relay = constructed based on a 1970's vintage Wicks relay. My action is also Reisner 601's = and Wicks DE magnets. When the relay was added, suddenly some notes would not sound (if the pipe was removed for a moment then reseated, the pipe WOULD sound). The problem: DIODES and WIRE! The Wicks relay uses diodes isolated gang switches with (germanium) power transistor drivers. In addition, there is a lot of additional wiring = within the relay. And also, the power input to the power transistor switching panels goes through a large diode to protect against reverse polarity. So the following contribute to voltage losses to the pipe magnets (in MY = case): 1. Additional wiring length 2. Contact resistance in the Reisner or Wicks gang switches 3. Isolation diodes for the switches (silicon, 0.5 volts +) 4. Protection diodes (another .5 volts +) 5. Power Transistor drivers (about .4 volts) I just cranked the Astron all the way up to max (almost 15 volts) and everything worked fine. I'm sure that if I CAREFULLY adjusted the magnets they would work with 10-12 volts, but I prefer that they get about 13.5 = for reliable operation (in my case: 4" wind). Dave

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mixture Chest From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 11:44:22 CST Dear Larry, Dave, and list: I can't jack up the voltage from the rectifier because the electronic = relay I'm using can only take 12 volts to the chest magnets. However, once the entire relay is installed the old rectifier will only power chest magnets, = the combination action and the trem and zimbelstern magnets. All the big magnets on the old couplers will no longer be used. The relay has it's = own power supply to power the circuit boards. I think that the mixture chest will only not work if you happen to be tripping the combination action at the same time some notes are held down, then only for a second. In = addition I will lower the wind pressure to 3-1/2" from 4-1/2" to accomodate the voicing of the new pipes. This should make the magnets easier to open. Bart Kleineweber

Subject: Amperes! Was Mixture Chest From: <TheGluePot@aol.com <mailto:TheGluePot@aol.com>> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:00:12 EST > You are starting to get me concerned that my two 20-amp Durst = rectifiers may not > be enough for the 8-10 ranks of direct electric chests I = eventually hope to have for > my unified (unitified? ;-) home organ. > Should I be thinking about getting more amps for this system? > Mac Hayes >> As a professional organ builder I always compute the maximum number of = keys down with couplers on to get how many chest magnets are involved then add shutters opens, pistons pushed, console lights on, and every other current = eating mechanism thrown in. Current is additive. If you have direct electric action with each magnet drawing 0.5 Amps and 40 chest magnets = will be playing then 20 Amps will be drawn. Your possibly unbalanced 20 + 20 = Amp supply may burn your house down unless you have fuses on them, both on the = input and output sides. For a non-unified organ figure a 3 note chord playing 10 ranks gives you 30 magnets on plus the next manual playing 3 = notes on 5 ranks adds another 15 Amps and 2 notes on the pedal with 3 ranks give = a total of 41 magnets at 0.5 Amp or 20.5 Amp total. You haven't even = started with stop magnets, console lights, shutter magnets, the Zimblestern motor, = etc., and already your rectifiers are at half output. Add a coupler to = each manual and the current jumps to 41 Amps. An electromechanical relay would = just add many more Amps being drawn. Unified organs can add many more = chest magnets into the current draw. The rectifiers quickly become crispy critters! Without fuses and by having too small wires in the organ could mean your calling the fire department. One thing to remember, organs are considered to be part of the house they are installed in, thus negating = your homeowners insurance by having illegal non-code wiring installed. After = the fire your insurance policy is null and void. Once I compute the maximum I then double it. Fuses are always put on = every single rank return wire and applied liberally within the instrument on a central fuse board next to the relay. Every wire is tagged so as to be identified. The higher voltage fuses for the line currents are all in national electrical code approved boxes installed by licensed electricians = (and double checked by myself) under a building permit from the local = county or municipality. The insurance company is notified of the installation = and thus the homeowner is covered. Many times the instrument is put on as an extension to the policy so it is covered also. Al Sefl

From: Larry Chace <rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>> > To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org <mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org>> > Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] REVERSE RELAY > Date: Thursday, March 16, 2000 2:40 PM > > "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net <mailto:highnote@mhtc.net>> asked about having a mixture of > polarities for his stop switches. There are several approaches to this > problem and the best one might depend upon several variables. > > To make it simple, since there are few stop switches involved, one approach > would be to get some simple relays (electro-mechanical switches!) that > could be operated from the stoptabs and could in turn produce the proper = > polarity for the corresponding "organ" relay. > > If you don't like e/m relays, you can always "switch" (HA!) to various > solid-state devices such as CMOS inverters (CD4049, for example) or drivers > such as the ULN200x family. > > (If you don't recognize those terms, go to Radio Shack and look at their = > little relays!) > > Larry Chace

Subject: RE: combination action From: "Dave McClellan" <drmc@speedfactory.net <mailto:drmc@speedfactory.net>> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:38:48 -0500 Steve Pitts asked: "I have heard of the term "Combination Action" ? I have heard of a = switching mechanism which has 61 power transistors..one for each note of a manual or 32 for a pedal board ) the transistors drive the direct electric or EP magnets.What is this mechanism called?" I think this would be called a relay. I use one of these in my residence instrument. It was manufactured by Wicks. These appear to have been used in cases where the stop switching is external to the console. Consoles = used with such a relay would have keys with multiple contacts (or slider rails) which are connected through gang switches in the console for coupler switching. The output of the console is (in my case): o Great Main out (61) o Swell Main out (61) o Pedal Main out (32) o Stop switches (one per tab) These connect to the relay, which consists of the power transistor amplifiers Steve mentioned, followed by a series of diode-isolated gang switches (for unit or borrowed stops) or common return relays (one = contact) for straight stops (diode isolation is still required even for straight stops). It is very simple to expand such a relay by adding additional diode-isolated gang switches (up to a limit, of course). I have also seen a totally electro-mechanical form of such a relay which uses a keying relay for each key on all manuals and pedal. The keying = relay has many contacts that again feed into gang switches which do the stop switching. The advantage of this form of relay is that no diode isolation is required. But it gets complex when you run out of contacts on the = keying relay. Thus this form of relay is not as easy to expand. Of course all of this is moot if you are willing to invest in a = computerized electronic relay (I could not afford it). Steve was concerned about the ability to expand an instrument. I learned the hard way that in my case the CONSOLE was the limiting factor, as some people on the list have stated. You need to make sure you will have = enough stop and coupler controls to meet your ultimate needs. I was forced to replace my original console because it did not have enough tabs (and had = NO couplers). Some will argue that virtually any console can be upgraded and = a new stoprail or stop jambs fabricated. While this may be theoretically true, my investigation found that buying a larger replacement console was much cheaper (especially if available locally). I would look for an instrument with coupler switching in the console, and thus the stop action switching external to the console in the form of a relay. That way you may possibly be able to expand the relay (as I did), depending of course on its construction. Dave