Some recent posts discussing relays have got me thinking about what to use for my basement organ. I'm just about ready to start wiring things up but i'm having second thoughts about using the late 60's klann electro-mechanical relay that was given to me. even though the specification is adequate to run the organ, i'm afraid i'm going to run into reliablity problems and at this point have better things to do than run about fixing relay problems. i'd rather not wire the entire thing up to find out that i need to replace it anyway and do all the work twice. are any of you familiar with 60's era klann relays and should i be concerned? also, if i decide to replace the klann, i would go solid state. there seem to be so many different brands available. i'd like to know which ones you've had sucess with and which ones to stay away from. obviously cost is the major factor for me, but i'd also like to have something that is expandable for future addons. two relays that i've read a bit about are from syndyne and emutek. both look like nice products from their literature. info on any brands would be appreciated. thanks. -randy

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Relay questions From: "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com <mailto:ron@sensor.com>> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:51:43 -0500 I've looked at specs for a lot of relays, though I have no experience = directly. However, Solid State Logic has *LOTS* of docs on their unit on line, so at = least it's good reading even if you don't end up going that way.

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(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Relay questions From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com <mailto:david@blackiris.com>> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:58:21 -0600 Randy I would advise against using the Klann relay unless it is completely out of the question for purchasing a new SS control system for the organ. At this point you are taking about something that is 30+ years old and even if it OK right now it may develop reliability problems. Plus, it may limit you in the future. I am using the Artisan system on my home instrument and am very pleased with it. I did a lot of research on the various systems available and felt that for my purposes the Artisan system was the best. I have the organ spread out in two locations, the Great is in the Living Room and the breakfast nook of the Kitchen, which are separated by a large opening that has some decorative columns. The Swell is in my Master Bedroom which is right off of the Living Room. With my set-up I have one computer in the console and one in each division. All of those are connected by an Ethernet cable of 8 wires that I was able to snake through the attic between the divisions. From each "chamber" computer output board there is a 6-wire phone cable that runs to the Rank Driver boards which can be mounted right on the side of the chest, or in a couple of cases in my set-up, inside of the chest. All of this makes the wiring much easier - no big cables running from the console to the "chambers" or between the "chambers". The other, and most important for me, feature is that I can respecify the organ any time I want using an old DOS laptop connected to the console computer. Several of the other systems I looked at needed to have EPROMS "burnt" by the manufacturer to change the specifications of the instrument. Of course, that is fine for an instrument going from a professional builder into some place like a church where the organ specs won't change. But since, as I add more ranks to my instrument and even change the console to a 3 manual one instead of the two manual currently in use, I can just write a new "host" file and respec the organ myself. Hope this helps. There is a link on the list's web site to the Artisan web site and also one of the people from Artisan are on this list so they may have more information for you regarding they system. David

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Relay questions From: <DEMPAR1@aol.com <mailto:DEMPAR1@aol.com>> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:13:53 EST There is one major consideration once you decide to go with a solid state relay. Do you want your system to rely on a computer which can become obsolete or where the manufacturer of the relay hardware or software may = no longer support the system you have, or do you want to stick to solid state = components that can be replaced whether the manufacturer is there or not? = For this reason, I chose to use a Devtronics relay. All of the components = could be replaced with off the shelf parts from an electronics supply house were = Devtronics ever to go away. In a dire emergency, even a printed circuit = board could be recreated by a board manufacturer. Devtronics uses standard = diodes, driver chips and resistors and capacitors that you can buy anywhere. There = is no special circuitry other than standard diode matrix switching and transistor current switches. The computer based systems are great and flexible. I have worked with the Artisan and Peterson systems so I have = some first hand experience. The only trouble would come if those companies were = ever to go out of business or stop supporting the particular model product = you have. That is the real issue once you decide to go solid state.

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Relay questions From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com <mailto:Pipewheezr@aol.com>> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:51:55 EST Hi, I would like to add my electrical experience to this. When I bought = the organ from the fellow in Fallbrook,it had been in stored off and on for I guess about thirty years. The console had never been hooked up, it is a = Klann with one of their tripper combo.system's.It misses ounce and a while, so I = added a power supply to the console for the combo. machine it self. Now it = is almost repeatable. The stop switches in the garage are all new except one. = I have been told to loose all this stuff and go computerized. This mean's replacing all the stop tab's with Sam's, 70 or so, at about 15.00 dollars each. Then you get to buy the rest of the stuff. The cost killed it, and also the part's being new even though thirty years old, it is allot of wiring, but it is twelve volt's, it is easy to trace problems with a test light or buzzer. I will some day replace the tripper combo. machine, some day, but I = like the old stop switches and the wiring that goes with. If the combonation computer get's sick you can still turn on stop's by hand. Of to work. Dennis

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net <mailto:ndenton@cgocable.net>> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:10:46 -0500 A couple of things to think about. Disadvantages Mechanical relays are noisier than solid state. They require a larger space. Requires much more DC power to operate. Contacts get dirty and wear out. Advantages Low cost when buying used. Easy to troubleshoot and repair. You can easily fix them with bobby pins and duct tape. (well almost) Simple design makes them easy to wire and rewire. Solid state is the way to go if you are building new. The reliability and extra features are worth the extra cost for most church installations. For = a residence organ however cost is almost always a major concern. Long life = (30 years or more) is rarely ever a factor in a residence organ where the = organ is usually sold or forgotten after a few years. In a church situation it = is expected that the organ will last forever and breakdowns are frowned upon. In a residence organ a minor breakdown is a chance to tinker! I'd suggest that you look the relay over carefully and note any excessive wear on the contacts (gouges caused by arcing or use) or signs that many contacts are replacements or are bent. Adding Spark suppression diodes is very critical to any relay of any kind as the "Back EMF" that is produced by any magnet when the power is turned off causes a large surge of power to flow backwards towards the relay's contacts. This is where the "spark" comes from. The voltage can reach 1000 Volts or more and damage WILL result in time. Diodes also remove the noisy "clicking and popping sounds" on T.V. sets = and audio equipment when an organ is played. I'd check and see if the relay = has them already installed or you can add them at a later date yourself ( at about $.25 per diode plus labour) $900 however does seem a bit much for a used relay. I'd try getting the price down a bit. Nelson Denton

Mouser has the diodes 1N4007's at about $.03 ea. at quantities of 100 or more.

Subject: diodes From: "Robert W. Taylor" <rtaylor@sockets.net <mailto:rtaylor@sockets.net>> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:12:11 -0600 Since the recent discussion has revealed a inexpensive source of diodes, I have started thinking in terms of installing them on my organ. I was = going to do it anyway, since my MIDI interface could be damaged without diode protection. My questions to the list, What is the best way to install diodes? Where should they actually be located? Are mounting devices available? What = is considered the standard way of retrofitting? My sanity is slowly returning as I have completed the rebuilding of my Aeolian Concertola. I am in the shake-down, tweaking phase now. Now that I fully understand both the pneumatic and electric control logic of this very complicated changer, the tweaking will actually be fun. So far, it handles good condition rolls beautifully. Bob Taylor

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] diodes From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net <mailto:rrloesch@jps.net>> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 06:52:17 -0800 At 08:12 03/26/2001 -0600, Robert W. Taylor wrote: >My questions to the list, What is the best way to install diodes? Where >should they actually be located? Are mounting devices available? What = is >considered the standard way of retrofitting? On a large (3m\26rk) Wurlitzer relay I used to work on, the doides had = been installed two different ways: 1)where space was available, the isolation diodes and the spark = suppression diodes were installed on perforated PC board, and the chest wiring was diverted to the diodes with an additional length of cable. A heavy gauge return ('ground') wire ran the spark suppression diodes to ground. 2)where space was at a premium, the spark suppression diodes were wired on the chests directly across the magnets, and the isolation diodes were soldered directly to the junction board contact strips, the wires having been lifted off and reterminated on the diode. This last method made the junction board look a little odd with diodes sticking out 1/2" or so from the connectors, but it took up a lot less space than the extra perf-board. Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818

Subject: A diode question From: "Peter Schmuckal" <peter@schmuckal.com <mailto:peter@schmuckal.com>> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:01:45 -0800 At the risk of picking diode nits: Why are 1N4007 diodes recommended over, say 1N4001 diodes? Both are 1A devices, but the former is rated at 1000V PIV, and the latter is 50V PIV. Most organ relays use 10-15V, so I don't see why 50V isn't more than sufficient. The diode doesn't see the large reverse inductive spike since that is in the forward direction for the diode and will cause it to = conduct (which is the whole reason we're using them). I realize that for all pratical purposes there is little cost difference between the two flavors to justify even this discussion, but I am just curious if anyone has had any problems with blowing out these diodes? - Peter Schmuckal

From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:RLC1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:50:23 -0500 Peter Schmuckal <peter@schmuckal.com <mailto:peter@schmuckal.com>> asked about different versions of = the 1N4000-series of diodes and pointed out the different peak inverse voltage ratings. This topic got some airing a while ago (perhaps quite a while ago!) on PIPORG-L. The diode's function is to conduct the current that the magnet tries to generate as its magnetic field collapses when the supply is cut off (when the note is released). The only *inverse* voltage the diode ever sees is the power supply voltage, usually 10-15v, and so all of the 1N4000-series diodes are equivalent in this circuit. It is true that, without the diode, a very high voltage spike will appear, and that is what helps erode the key or relay contacts or zap any unfortunate solid-state devices attached, but with the diode that voltage never develops. The amount of current that flows is also quite small and for a small = period of time. It is entirely likely that the little glass-encased 1N4148 = signal diodes would work just as well as the beefy epoxy-encased 1N4000 guys. = The glass ones *look* weak and puny, though, and they are more easily damaged. Some professional builders said that they like to use the 1N4005, -6, or = -7 just "to be sure". At an extra penny or less for each increment in PIV, = it is not a significant price difference. The professional will pay lots = more for the labor to install the diodes! If you are depending upon the built-in diodes that are a part of many of the popular driver chips (ULN2003, ULN2803, UDN2981, UDN2987, etc.), just be sure that you have a reasonably low-impedence connection to the chips' diode common. If the connection is a little piece of 28ga wire, then the effectiveness of the diodes will be reduced, perhaps to the point where they no longer provide the protection that the rest of the chip so rightly deserves. The further the diode is from the magnet, the greater the = chance of failure to protect. For my own instrument, I'll wire 1N400x diodes across the terminals of the 601s, even though the driver boards have their own on-chip diodes. For a retro-fit, you have to find the most convenient location for them, and = that might be on the chest bottom board, on a junction, or on purpose-built boards as has been suggested already by other contributors. You might = find it helpful to make up a little jig for bending the diode leads so that = they fit nicely where you want to install them. And, be sure you have the polarity correct; othewise, you are installing solid-state short circuits! Larry Chace

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] A diode question From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net <mailto:rrloesch@jps.net>> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:53:33 -0800 The reverse voltage from an organ magnet's collapsing magnetic field can be as high as several hundred volts. True, the amperage is very low, but the high voltage could fry a 1N4001 diode. PIV stands for 'positive inverse voltage', and is the amount of REVERSE voltage that the diode can block. That little 1N4001 will do just fine up to 50 volts, but any reverse voltage higher than 50V will go through it like it wasn't there. Having worked for many years on electro-mechanical telephone switching which ran on 48VDC, I can tell you from experience just how hard a collapsing field 'kick' can bite! In addition, since the cost difference isn't that great, doesn't it make sense to go with the higher rating, since that 2=A2 difference might save several hundred dollars worth of electronic goodies? =20

Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] A diode question From: "Grandstaff, Larry P." <grandslp@smxcorp.com <mailto:grandslp@smxcorp.com>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:02:26 -0500 The one thing that you want to consider concerning the mounting of the diodes is that farther from the coil you are, the more EMI signal you are going to generate and the less effective the diode is. The wires from the point where the diode is mounted to the coil become an antenna and will cause interference on older electronic products that do not have good EMI rejection circuits. The discharge is going to follow the path of least resistance, so as the length of wire increases the effect of the diode is reduced. Use an old AM transistor radio to test how well your diode is working to suppress the back EMF. You will never get rid of all the interference, = but you will certainly reduce it to tolerable level by mounting the diode = right to the coil. Larry Grandstaff

Mac, The coil of your electric action is the source of the electrical spikes. The coil has two connections(wires) on it. If you don't know the polarity of the voltage powering it; Get a voltmeter. Set it to read DC voltage. = Set the range to read about 20 volts. The leads from the meter should be red and black. Red should be plugged into the meter where it says "+" or "positive" and the black similarly into "-" or "common". Energize the action and touch the lead tips to the two connections. A digital meter = will show the voltage number preceded by a "+" or preceded by nothing. If it reads a voltage preceded by "-" or "neg", then reverse the leads. When you read "pos" or "+" the red wire is connected to the positive side of your coil(circuit) and obviously the black to the negative. If you use an "analog" meter with a pointer the needle should deflect to the right to indicate proper polarity. Now that you have determined the polarity of your coil circuit you can connect a diode accross it. The diode will have a stripe around its body = on one end. This stripe indicates the cathode or negative side of the diode. Since the diode is hooked accross backwards to snub the spikes, the stripe goes on the positive side of your coil and naturally the other end to the negative side. Now that you have determined which way your circuits work you can install them all the same. Don't use too much heat with your solder iron! Hope this helps! John V

Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] relays and switching From: "ATOS" <atos@stirlingprop.com <mailto:atos@stirlingprop.com>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:16:17 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=3D_NextPart_000_0002_01C17D11.4B8F8EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used standard radio shack transistors to switch my harp. If you = want a diagram of the switching system I built, please go to: <http://atos.stirlingprop.com/kbase/chimerelay.htm>

Subject: Re: control system From: "Dave McClellan" <deep_tremolo@hotmail.com <mailto:deep_tremolo@hotmail.com>> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 06:41:53 -0500 If anyone needs 100+ used chest magnets (Mudler Hunter, circa 1910) they = may have them for the cost of shipping and packing. But be advised, they are HEAVY! One also must consider the time required to clean them up, and = also the lead length issue mentioned on the list. These are the type with the little door on the front secured with a sliding clip, rather than screw-on = caps. Regarding relays and drivers, the Wicks organ site has two power = transistor relays for sale. Each appears to have two 61 note panels and one 32 note panel, with fuses etc. They also have Wicks type gang switches. It may = be cheaper to buy the driver panels already assembled than to build from scratch. I also have seen several organ builders with these panels lying around in their stock rooms. I can provide the schematic of the Wicks = type driver circuit, but it uses PNP power transistors (not recommended for = many reasons)! I would not give up on used Reisner type gang switches - that's what I = used for my residence instrument (10 ranks), with no problems (yet). But it takes a LOT OF TIME (which I have a lot more of than money) to strip off = the old wiring and clean them up. In my case, I completely disassembled each switch, removed the wiring from the buss bars and contact finger blocks, removed the contact blocks and buss bars (they are silver, I think) and cleaned them in an ultrasonic cleaner with sudsy ammonia. My relay was constructed from a Wicks relay with additional switching added using = Reisner switches. Dave

I am using Radio Shack 30 amp automotive relays for my stop action, they = are less than $5 each (one per rank) and are made in the UK. Randall <http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/>

Dear list, Oh, how serendipitous! I'm designing a relay for my home organ. =3D The organ was supposed to be a church organ, but it is so heavliy =3D unified that it would be a genuine theatre organ if it had a tremulo, =3D tibia and a vox humana. The resources of my organ most nearly and =3D ironically (because the console is a used Wicks console and a lot of the = =3D magnets are used Wicks DE) match the resources of the American Classic =3D IV (<http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm)> by Wicks. =3D20 I am planning to use the SN74LS08 QUAD 2-INPUT AND gate and the =3D MJE3055T power transistor as the guts of the relay. Two SN7408 series =3D chips and one power transistor are assigned to each pipe. The power =3D transistor is mounted inside the windchest, powered by bus bars inside =3D the windchest, and uses the metal supports of the DE magnets for its =3D heatsink. Each gate allows a stop and a key when both are on to force =3D the output high, which then forces the transistor to conduct, which then = =3D allows the magnet to energize and the valve to open. Turning the stop =3D off or releasing the key causes the output of the logic gate to go to =3D 0V, which causes the transistor to stop conducting and permits the valve = =3D to close. The outputs refering to a particular pipe are simply soldered = =3D together into one 24AWG wire since an OR gate is an unnecessary =3D complication which can easily be handled by wiring the sources in =3D parallel. This arrangement allows for a heavily unified windchest of 61 = =3D notes to be controlled by 63 wires: 61 signal, 1 ground, 1 positve =3D supply. Eight gates per note on average may seem excessive, but it is a =3D small number considering that the console is two manuals with pedal. For = =3D example, Bourdon-Gedeckt (97pipes): 16-8-4-2 SW 16-8-4-2 GT 32-16-10 2/3-8-4 PED (the 32' sounds both the 16' and the 10 2/3' for =3D its first octave and sounds the first octaves of the 16' for the =3D balance) For this particular rank, three chips would be needed per pipe! =3D Let's not even bother to calculate the exact number of discrete =3D components needed if you were going to build the relay with diodes and =3D transistors. For the Diapason (85 notes) 8-4 SW 8-4-2 2/3-2 GT 8-4 PED Unison couplers provided to couple SW to GT, SW to PED, and GT to PED. = =3D I think we can agree that any intramanual coupling would be pointless =3D and not add much power considering how unified the organ is already. Two chips are required per pipe. The Labial Saxophone (61 notes) requires only one chip because I plan to = =3D use it only on the manuals at 8' and 4'. I would appreciate seeing any tonal scheme that can make the most of = =3D the resources I plan to put on the organ: 16' Bourdon (12 notes) 8'-4'-2' Gedeckt (73 notes wood, 12 notes metal) 8' Labial Saxophone (61 notes, gamba-like sound) 8'-4'-2' Diapason (85 notes, to be acquired) 8' Oboe (to be acquired) Feel free to fling buckets of cold water in my direction. BTW, I just noticed that the American Classic III-IV organs by Wicks =3D have very similar resources: 16' Rohrgedeckt 97 Pipes 8' Principal 85 Pipes 4' Gemshorn 73 Pipes 8' Fagot 73 Pipes <http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm> In any case, I will end up buying in this phase of construction =3D roughly 522 logic gate chips, 243 power transistors, and enough PC board = =3D for all of them. Total cost should be about $200-300 for the relay. If = =3D I were going to build the same relay from transistors etc., I would need = =3D at least three to four times the number of components and five times the = =3D frustration. I chose to use prefabricated logic gates because I know =3D that they will work while drawing little current from the keys. I'm =3D going to be prototyping the system over the weekend. I will report back = =3D shortly. Sincerely, Christopher Sabatowich

Subject: Re: relays and such From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:RLC1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:22:41 -0500 "Christopher Sabatowich" <c.sabatowich@sthedwigchurch.zzn.com <mailto:c.sabatowich@sthedwigchurch.zzn.com>> outlined = his plans for a switching system for his residence organ. There are of course *many* possible approaches to such a design, but I'd like to make a few comments. The use of logic gates (2-input AND in this case) requires pull-down resistors on the inputs so that the inputs are "off" when the key or stop is not being used; for 74LS devices, this is something like .3ma per input to be sunk, and when played, the key or stop contacts will have to supply current to overwhelm the pull-downs. (The contacts will also enjoy having a few milliamps of current to switch so that they stay "clean".) With = 74LS devices, it is perhaps more common to use "negative" inputs, in which a pull-up resistor keeps the input "off" except when the switch contact closes, pulling it to ground. However, that would require the use of NOR gates in this case. Merging the outputs from 74LS devices usually requires additional components; you can't just wire them in parallel (unless they are of the "open collector" type). Diodes can work in this fashion, but you then = have to provide pull-downs (again) in case none of the diodes is conducting. Power transistors often require a fairly hefty base (input) current to = make them turn on fully; you need to make sure that the driving logic can produce sufficient current. The magnets should also be provided with fly-back diodes so that the transistors won't be damaged by the inductive kick-back when the magnet is turned off. I'd be tempted to use the very common ULN2003 (or ULN2004) instead, even if I'd use only a couple of the = 7 drivers per part. In general, I've found that CMOS logic gates are much easier to use, = either the 74HC series (+5v) or the older 4000 series (+12v). They take "no" current at their inputs and have other nice properties. I won't use TTL logic again (with the exception of 74F stuff when tremendous speed is needed and I'm not able to use the newer very fast CMOS parts because they are available only in surface-mount packages). Circuit boards onto which the logic gates will be mounted are mentioned by Chris, but he doesn't mention how he will make them. Making one board, perhaps by wire-wrap, isn't a big deal, but trying to make a bunch of them (and get them all correct!) is something else. With time and patience, it can be done. Personally, I don't have that much of either any more, and = so I'd spend the money to have the bare circuit boards fabricated to my design. I've used AP Circuits (<http://www.apcircuits.com),> who also provide a freeware version of Protel's Easytrax (PC only!), but you have = to learn to do board layouts and you have to pay to have the boards made! Let me suggest another approach that might work, something that I did many years ago for a proposed switching system for a small-ish organ. The idea was to have 12 circuit boards (plus a 13th as a spare!), one for each of the 12 note-letters. On that board I placed the logic for the coupler and unification as well as the (MOSFET) power transistors for driving the magnets. (There were no off-unison borrows, so there were no inter-board connections). The idea of making 12 identical boards seemed less daunting than making several hundred (smaller) ones. (Ultimately, I adopted a different plan for this system, retaining the single-note-letter logic but fitting *one* such example with multiplexing on its input and de-multiplexing on its output, so as to share that one logic unit among the 12 note-letters.) All in all, there is a balance to be struck between time and money. If = you have lots of time, you can save money (but you'll spend time). If you = have lots of money, you can buy the results of someone else's time. (This same comment applies to *all* aspects of our residence pipe organ projects!) Larry Chace

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] relay advice From: "Jon" <sparky@CEINetworks.com <mailto:sparky@CEINetworks.com>> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:45:32 -0500 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3099505533_31446 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Walker Technical Company provides the best interface for pipe organs. Though it is a bit pricey, its fast, reliable, and does not require confusing configurations. One encoder serves for 2 manuals, 2 encoders = for 4 manuals (or 3 and a pedalboard), etc. (their magnetic keying is REALLY nice!)... An entire system consists of a mere dozen boards or so for a = large organ.... ~jon

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] relay advice From: "Dan Emery" <danemery@yahoo.ca <mailto:danemery@yahoo.ca>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:55:36 -0500 (EST) --0-1015429523-1016718936=3D:84792 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Hello Brian, The contol system in my organ is from Classic Organ Works of Toronto = www.organworks.com. <http://www.organworks.com.> It's reliable and has never given me any problems. I also have their = optical key switching installed. Depending on your organ, you may only = need a single control box which installs in the console plus a pipe driver = module. cheers

From: "randy newman" <rnewman@shop.rutgers.edu <mailto:rnewman@shop.rutgers.edu>> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:26:47 -0500 --------------E50012B8A9C897EF4001AB3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; x-mac-type=3D"54455854"; = x-mac-creator=3D"4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy, the list has been slow lately. Anyway, Since Brian asked for advice on relays, I have a relay question of my own. I have been pondering over what relay to use for my residence organ for over a year now and still haven't made a decision. I'm still a ways away from the wiring stage, but i'd like to narrow it down in the near future. Overall on paper i've been most impressed with the Syndyne LS2400 keying system. While it may not be the best for everyone it seem to have some features that make it ideal for my installation. I would really like to hear some feedback from someone that has had experience with syndyne relays. Is there anyone on the list that can give some input? Thanks. -Randy

Subject: Re: relay advice From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:RLC1@etnainstruments.com>> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:48:04 -0500 I believe that Randy Newman hit the nail on the head at the ending of his observation: >...Overall on paper i've been most impressed with the Syndyne LS2400 >keying system. While it may not be the best for everyone it seem >to have some features that make it ideal for my installation. What is best for one person will not necessarily be best (or even good or even adequate) for someone else. I saw some of the Syndyne products in their display booth at the American Institute of Organbuilders convention last October (where I was displaying a small product of my own and also helping at the Z-tronics booth). The Syndyne products all looked very neat and well-made, and I know that their stop action units (tabs and now drawknobs) have been very popular. If I may ask, Randy, what are the features of the LS2400 that you found attractive? Larry Chace

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: relay advice From: "randy newman" <rnewman@shop.rutgers.edu <mailto:rnewman@shop.rutgers.edu>> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:31:46 -0500 Hi Larry, The syndyne relay has a few features I feel will work well in my = situataion. First of all it does not require a PC to set it up and does not require sending boards to the manufacturer to make changes to the specification. Since this is my residence organ it is a "work in progress" and i plan on reconfiguring things from time to time. Changing the spec is done from controls on one of the boards. While i'm sure it is not as easy to set up = as a system using a PC and graphical interface, in my case i won't mind the extra work since i won't need to buy and maintain a PC (i'm a mac user by = the way). My console is a 1930's Moller 3 manual drawknob air console and at = this point it is working fine and I don't have plans nor can i afford to = electrify it. The syndyne system has the combination action as a seperate optional board. since i won't need it right away i don't need to purchase it. in = the future if i decide to electrify the console i can buy it then. another thing that i was impressed about is the way the boards connect togeather. there is only a 4 wire telephone type cable that runs from = board to board. the magnet driver boards can be placed all togeather, or in my = case i would probably mount each board on the end of the chest it is going to drive. then all i have to do is daisy chain the boards togeather with = small jumper wires. in the event i need to remove a chest for service or want to reconfigure all i need to do is unplug the phone wire and remove. no big cables to unsolder. There are other things as well but these were the biggest of the points = that impressed me. I'm sure there are other relay systems out there that have = some of these features as well. I have not looked into all of them. I mainly = only know about systems that have info on line. I would be more than happy to hear about peoples experiences with other systems. -Randy

Subject: Relays From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com <mailto:gblack@ocslink.com>> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:41:02 -0600 Hi Group, Here is my two cents worth on relays. I have a solid state = relay from Peterson's. I am a nightmare when it comes to this sort of thing. = The folks at Peterson's have been nothing but wonderful there, will be a star = in their crowns for putting up with me! If it wasn't for Bob Dommer at Peterson's the organ here wouldn't be playing. He has helped me over the phone with the stupidest questions on my part. He is very patient and kind and has helped me a great deal. Thank you Bob. A word of advice if you want to go with them. Make sure that you know what kind of chests you = want to use. I had purchased some used pitman chests a few years back from a person in Delevan, Wi. and they were awful!( We burned them at the homecoming bonfire at school)! I have since( after I got the relay), = gone to electro-mechanical. There have been some changes on the relay because = of this and so it could have been avoided if I had done the = electro-mechanical in the first place. Have fun. The 1905 Estey lives and I love it! Gary

Subject: organ relays From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com <mailto:randyterryus@yahoo.com>> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:51:47 -0800 (PST) I am going to break with protocol and share some thoughts and ask for = feedback. I am rebuilding a 1961 2 manual Aeolian-Skinner knob console for my church = project. We tried Harris knobs, but they were too long and would not fit the Skinner space = at all on the outside pedal row of knobs. I then tried the new Syndyne knob and found that they = are wonderful in operation and other than being ivory and black colored plastic, you = absolutely cannot tell the difference in the originals without a very close look. They are more = affordable then the first item I looked at as well. They are supplying most of the major supply = houses with the tab actions I gather, and I am sure they have a level of quality in their product = line. I did have one problem with one of the DK actions which was replaced quickly. They made wiring = harnesses and maps for me as well, the charge was minimal and saved so much work. Delightful to work = with. I went with the Artisan system. I have the console done except for the new = replica nameboard and keyslips which OSI is behind in getting to me, but we expect to switch out = consoles during May. So far, the Artisan diagnostic programs are all functioning well and other = than not having immediate tech support they have been responsive to my questions. I usually have = questions answered by email the next day. The features the system offers are excellent, and I have = spent a great effort to get the console hardware correct and in the future if they want to replace the = relay system, the console will not need any redoing. We simply could not afford a Peterson = system which was my first choice. The only negative comment I have received in my research was where a large = Johannus console was added to a large pipe organ and the Artisan pipe control system had to run = 70 some odd ranks through a midi port. The organist said there was a very slight delay that = was pretty well worked out and not a problem as far as she was concerned - she is a nationally = know organ composer. Does anyone out there have any experience using Artisan equiupment? I = would like to know both the good and bad and what to expect as far as day-to-day operation? Since the = instrument will be controlled by computers, how do you prepare for the inevitable crash!! = There is plenty of room for the host computer in the console and I guess the program could be easily = uploaded if saved on disc. Thanks, Randy Terry