Subject: RE: cleaning pipes

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:09:52 -0600

I have some spotted metal pipes that have a white discoloration on some of the pipes..I have tried ordinary means to clean them to no avail....does anybody know how to get that stuff off?

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Hello Steve: In the industry this is called "sugaring" but in reality is just metal=20 oxidation/rust or corrosion. Normally pipes of high quality are given a coa= t=20 of clear lacquer that protects them for eons. During restoration a solution= =20 of hydrochloric acid is used to dissolve the oxidation and other industrial=20 cleaners like TSP or Gone=AE are used where the acid use would not be=20 reasonable. A lacquer solvent may be needed to remove the painted coating=20 for the cleaner to affect the metal underneath. Steel wool of 0000 grade or= =20 a ScotchBrite pad is gently used to mechanically remove the oxide in=20 conjunction with the cleaning solution. Once cleaned the pipe is rinsed=20 until ALL of the cleaning solution is washed off then a new coat of clear=20 lacquer is applied. I've seen pipework that looked like hell come back to=20 rival the chrome on a '53 DeSoto bumper! Al Sefl p.s. Don't use the hydrochloric acid unless ALL precautions are taken. e.g= ..=20 Use it outdoors, dilute it down to a 5% solution, wear a faceshield, wear a= =20 chemical apron, keep sodium bicarbonate solution neutralizer handy, wear=20 certified hole-free nitril gloves, etc........

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Steve: Try a little DOW bathroom cleaner (Scrubbing Bubbles) and a dishwashing sponge (loke coral or something a little heavier, not brillo, that's too scratchy). Clean with DOW and buff the surface lightly. Then spray again and allow to foam then buff. If the cycle goes through like that 3 times with no effect, you'll want to progress to the steps recommended by the esteemed Glue Pot. The above worked on a set of Gamba basses that I had from a Jardine organ. Some needed more attention, but for the most part, it's worth a shot, the results were good. Best luck. Chris Malocheski, Malocheski Theater Systems

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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] (TJOR) The Joys of Releathering

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:51:15 EDT

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Subject: cleaning zinc pipes

Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:09:54 -0500

Greetings to list, Does anyone out there have some favorite methods for cleaning zinc pipes? = I am curious as to what is most effective especially when there is = oxidation. When zinc pipes are cleaned what is the concensus on re-lacquering them? Thanks, Larry

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Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] cleaning zinc pipes

Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:12:27 -0700

I am assuming you're talking about flue pipes. And it depends on how = clean you need to get them. It sounds like you've got a set that has a lot of white powdery oxidation. = To deal with this, what I usually do is wash the pipes down well, with a mild dish detergent (but not too much) and water. If you still appear to have quite a bit of oxidation present, then (and the next step may sound a little strange, but it works) make a cleaning trough of a size large = enough to accommodate the largest pipe. This can be made of wood, with a heavy plastic tarp liner. Buy yourself several gallons of white vinegar. Yes, the same stuff you might find in your kitchen. Vinegar is a mild corrosive. Put the vinegar into the trough, and a pipe into the vinegar. Leave it there for about 10 to 15 minutes (but do watch it; different zinc alloys may react differently). Much of the oxidation should disappear. Any oxide "stains" you may be left with you are probably stuck with. Take the pipe out, wash down the pipe thoroughly with water, and let it dry (a good wipedown doesn't hurt). When the pipes are dry, DO seal them again. Anciently, shellac was used = to seal zinc, but lacquer is probably better, and more durable. If you can = do this inside and out, with a dilute solution of lacquer, you will forestall further oxidation problems. This is probably not the only way to get the result; I would be interested in hearing how others go about it! Greg Rister Pipe Organ Craftsmen Pomona, California

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Subject: Re:Cleaning Pipes (metal and wood)

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:32:52 EST

Here again is my standard answer on pipe cleaning but I am sure there are others with very successful alternate methods. You probably won't like to work with what I use. At the factory pipes are = washed clean of the whiting and fingerprints with a good soap (TSP) and = water wash. Then the pipes are put through a pickling bath of acid. That is = how the zinc pipes get those nice patterns showing the crystalline zinc cells. = A sodium bicarbonate neutralizer bath and rinse follows. After thorough = drying the pipes are spay lacquered to keep them looking good for some time. Refinishing is about the same. To make the pipes look like factory new: 1) remove any and all lacquer coating with paint remover. 2) wash pipes thoroughly. 3) using hydrochloric acid in a greatly diluted solution set in a dipping = trough, dip the pipes for a short time then check results before dipping again. 4) rinse the pipes and dip into a sodium bicarbonate solution then rinse well again. 5) dry well. 6) spray musical instrument lacquer on. 7) step back and admire your "new" pipe after reassembly. I personally tend to *avoid* any steel wool unless absolutely necessary. Even the fine scratches it leaves will eventually degrade the surface. Nonscratch nylon type pads used for art restoration is just a bit better = but ideally no abrasion is wanted. Our pristine pipework at Berkeley wasn't = all that pristine when we got it! Everything now looks better than factory = fresh but it took a lot of labor. I wish I could give you a quick and easy = method but with the original lacquer on the pipes there just isn't one. Several industrial chemicals are available that will work in place of the acid pickling bath. Occasionally a metal polish needs to be used if you really = want to see yourself in the pipe but many feel that is going too far = (brass ranks excluded I'm sure). Eye protection wear, chemical gloves, and a chemical apron are a must as = is a source of running water and a sodium bicarbonate tub for neutralizing splashes. Hydrochloric acid is the same as muriatic acid from pool supply = stores and Arm and Hammer Baking Soda is 100% sodium bicarb. All work = should be done out in the open air as the acid fumes are toxic even in small = amounts (check wind direction). The saving grace is that you dilute the acid down = a great deal until you get used to working with it safely. I add acid to my = pool wearing eye protection only and have never splashed myself (knock on wood). Dipping pipes reduces the acidity as oxides are dissolved and = fresh acid must be added periodically. The spent solution should be neutralized = with sodium bicarbonate then disposed of as toxic waste because of the = lead and zinc content. Most municipal water treatment plants deal with lead = and heavy metals because of the lead still found in old plumbing so dumping = the solution down the drain of a city like San Francisco is no problem in = small quantities. Your local sanitary district may be different and septic = tanks are a big no-no as is anything that puts the lead in the groundwater. Wood pipes are first blown out with low pressure compressed air to = dislodge dust. The insides are normally "sized" with hot glue used as a sealant. Murphy's Wood Soap on a damp (not wet) terrycloth towel over the outside = will get most of the dirt off. When dry and rubbed clean a second time I apply = shellac with a spray gun to seal the surface and make the pipes look like = new or better. Masking tape the areas you don't want to spray and besure to remove the cap so you won't shellac it to the pipe body. Just use common sense for the most part. If the pipe languid is shellaced on some pipes = it will crack so what was not originally shellaced should not be during a restoration. Reeds are a whole separate study and must be carefully disassembled before = cleaning them. This is a longer process requiring many clarifications = which I will not cover here. Hope my ramblings help, best wishes to you, Al

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Greetings Homer: I'll have to amend my standard cleaning commentary to be a bit more = precise. Yes, cleaning any of the common metal (spotted metal) pipes, high tin strings, Hoyt metal (tin plating on lead/antimony alloy), and others can = be done with the highly diluted hydrochloric acid solution. The acid = dissolves the oxides of most metals. One thing I forgot to mention was an admonition about cleaning pipes with = the air gun. Many soft tin strings especially and other metal flues can be sensitive to being blown out with an air gun. Languids often move and the = pipe becomes speachless until revoiced. When one does dust out or dry off = the pipe with an air gun it is a good idea never to aim it at the languid = or toe hole. Best to all, Al Sefl

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Kevin and Bob: Washing pipes is usually only done during a major restoration. It is done = to remove not only the dust/dirt accumulation but also the oxide from of = pipes so they can be made to look bright shiny and new again. I was at the = Crystal Cathedral this last summer and was horrified at how badly the organs were damaged by oxidation. The zincs were gray with powder, the spotteds were dull gray, and even the once bright tin coated tuning slides were dark = brown with rust. Oxides make tuning slides stick solidly and do other bad = things to organs. e.g. Oxide dust falling into reeds cause buzzing. So we are = not just talking about generic dust though even generic dust by itself will = have detrimental effects. A layer of dust on the languid of a sensitive string = can actually cause problems. Dust also provides particles for the condensation of water which will further oxidize pipes. A highly prized art object gets regular dusting so why is it strange to = think that a delicate musical instrument of some complexity and value should not = be dusted and periodically restored? Even a Stradivarius gets dusted out and = washed occasionally! Al Sefl

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Washing pipes has yet another benefit. Once cleaned, the pipes can have a = good quality instrument lacquer applied that will protect them from air polution, water condensation, and general oxidation. The Crystal = Cathedral organ looks like hell from the ravages of polution and condensation. Had = a quality clear coating been applied that instrument would certainly still = have that new pipe sparkle. Best wishes to you, Al

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Good Evening, What clear laquer is recommended by you all out there to apply to freshly cleaned pipes? The very task of which I shall perform tomorrow........... > PS: BTW - did anyone but myself run to check the calendar for April 1st > after reading the add in the October Diapason 2001 for BUZZNOMORE powder > which you add a teaspoon full to a reed pipe to stop the buzzing? Has anybody actually tried this stuff, and can inform the list of its success or failure? Thanks, Jan S. Van Der Stad

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Hi Dorian: I use an instrument lacquer made for brass orchestral instruments. Any = full service music store or good instrument repair service will have it in both = bottle and spray can form. Krylon "clear" also does a decent job. Key = items to remember are to keep the spray from going into the windway or mouth directly, likewise the toe, and I remove the tuning slides/collars to be sprayed separately so they won't be stuck in place. A couple of light = coats are best with no runs. Pipework prepared thus will last indefinitely in = dark chambers with virtually no detioration/oxidation. For pipes exposed to severe conditions like the Crystal Cathedral I would have used an = ultraviolet resistant 2 part epoxy spray paint from an automotive paint supplier. I = have seen shellacked metal pipes and these too are protected but the shellac = has most often yellowed with age. Some of the large wood pipes at Crystal Cathedral look like they have been given a coat of white house paint (exterior grade) to protect them when the shellac failed. No matter what = you use, pipes with protective coatings will survive better than those that = are unprotected. Have fun tomorrow, Al Sefl

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Hello Steve: In the industry this is called "sugaring" but in reality is just metal oxidation/rust or corrosion. Normally pipes of high quality are given a coat of clear lacquer that protects them for eons. During restoration a solution of hydrochloric acid is used to dissolve the oxidation and other industrial cleaners like TSP or Gone=AE are used where the acid use would not be reasonable. A lacquer solvent may be needed to remove the painted coating for the cleaner to affect the metal underneath. Steel wool of 0000 grade or a ScotchBrite pad is gently used to mechanically remove the oxide in conjunction with the cleaning solution. Once cleaned the pipe is rinsed until ALL of the cleaning solution is washed off then a new coat of clear lacquer is applied. I've seen pipework that looked like hell come back to rival the chrome on a '53 DeSoto bumper! Al Sefl p.s. Don't use the hydrochloric acid unless ALL precautions are taken. e.g. Use it outdoors, dilute it down to a 5% solution, wear a faceshield, wear a chemical apron, keep sodium bicarbonate solution neutralizer handy, wear certified hole-free nitril gloves, etc........

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Subject: Cleaning Pipes

Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 22:46:45 -0600

Paul Soulek wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could use to clean/polish > some zinc and lead pipes? I just want to make their appearance a little > better, and don't really know what to use. Peterson used to sell a product called "CHEMI-KLEEN" in their catalog that you would dip the pipes into for about 10 minutes and then rinse them off. I know in recent years, they had some shipping problems with UPS due to the nature of the product and I don't know if they ever solved this problem or not. It'd be worth checking with them. Call (800) 341-3311 and speak with Caryn Kay (tell her Rich Schneider sent you!) She's and angel and if anything can be arranged, she'd be the one to do it. We also go a couple steps further and use a product called TARNITE which comes in an oblong yellow colored metal can. It's available from hardware stores (NOT to be confused with TARNEX!!); followed by a cleaning with Glass WAX, which comes in oblong PINK metal cans! This "3 step" is "our" procedure for cleaning up old pipes and it simply works wonders; as anyone who's seen our re-cycled pipes can attest! Hope it helps! Faithfully,

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Subject: Re: Pipe Cleaning

Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 12:31:24 EST

Hi again, pipers: I have read Al Sefl's posts on pipe cleaning and Richard's mesage of = today. I have about 20 of what appear to be original Haskelled Estey = pipes (they have the patent date stamped on them and are marked either = "Oboe" or "Dul.")and they have been painted with silver paint. I am = guessing that they are a high lead content alloy that would look rather = dull if clean. Al's message indicated that his pipe cleaning method only = works on unpainted pipes --- I would have to use paint stripper first. = Richard, does using your method mean no need for stripping first (I'm = guessing no such luck)? I have thought about not cleaning the exterior of = these pipes and just painting and stenciling them instead. I would really = rather au naturel if possible, but don't want something ugly and I don't = relish all that stripping either. Opinions? Thanks again, Roy Kersey It's still snowing here!

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Subject: Pipe Cleaning & painting tips.

Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 13:07:31 -0600

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>Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could use to clean/polish >some zinc and lead pipes? I just want to make their appearance a little >better, and don't really know what to use. > >Thank you! >Paul "NEVRDULL" from any hardware store. Amazing stuff John V

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