Windchest Building/Rebuilding Issues from Diyapason Archives thru 8/29/02
Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Making my own chest
From: "Bart Kleineweber" <
prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:34:20 CST
Hi fellow listers: I'm almost done making my own chest that will play a 2' prinzipal. I thought some of you might like to know how I did it. I needed a chest = that would play that rank that would fit in a very small space, and there are = no multiple rank chests in the organ. I opted for electro-mechanical action = as there are no channels involved and it is much easier and cheaper to build. = It measures 1 foot by 3 feet. I went to Home Depot and purchased oak = stair treads that are 1-1/4" thick and 1 X 3 feet. These were used for the top and bottom. Matching oak stair risers make up the sides. This made for a minimum of cutting, as I have nothing but hand saws. Then I ordered = Reisner 601 magnets from OSI, 12 were 3/4 valves and the remaining were 5/8 = valves, all 90 ohms and some 64 contact cable. Counter sinks and neoprene gasket came from Tracker Tool Supply. To lay out the pipes so that they would all fit in even rows, I turned the = bottom two octaves upside down on a piece of paper and traced their diameters. Then I cut out the circles of paper and laid them out on the bottom of the toeboard to see how many would fit in each row. The smaller = 3 octaves are smaller than a magnet, so I just used the magnets to allow space for these pipes. Once I marked the center of where each hole would go, I then drilled holes, the top part of the hole bigger than the hole in the toe of the pipe. I then made the inside of = the holes a little bigger with bigger drill bits. Next I counter sinked the = top of the holes using the set of counter sinks, and trying each pipe to see = if the counter sink was the right size for the pipe toe. No burning = required, nothing like having the right tool for the job! Tracing a magnet in its closed position on a piece of paper and cutting = out the trace allowed me to position the magnet with the valve centered over each hole and mark the positions of the bracket holes to be drilled. In very short order the magnets were all mounted. Next I laid a bare piece of 14 gauge solid wire along the side of the = chest to use as a common. Using 26 AWG PVC hook up wire, I soldered short wires = to the common post of the magnet to this 14 gauge solid wire. Then, using = the TELCO code outlined in a previous post to this list, I soldered the 64 = contact cable to the other post of each magnet. Then I laced the cable neatly and laid it over the common, and used insulated staples to mount = them both to the toe board. I cut a hole with an agressor in the bottom of the chest to receive a 2" piece of PVC for the windline. I also cut a hole in one of the side = boards to receive the cable and common. Now all I have left to do is glue the bottom and side boards together, = place the adhesive backed neoprene gasket in place and screw the toe board in place. And of course build a rack to hold the pipes in place. Hope this wasn't too long and boring. Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL
prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Making my own chest
From: "Eric Sagmuller" <
ess4@psu.edu <mailto:ess4@psu.edu>>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:10:52 -0500
Bart wrote: >and trying each pipe to see if >the counter sink was the right size for the pipe toe. No burning = required, >nothing like having the right tool for the job! As I will probably be making my own chest for a Mixture III I'm wondering about the burned countersunk holes normally seen in chests. Reading a much earlier post on pipeorg-l I was left with the impression that the toe hole is burned in on purpose, to keep the wood from reacting with the lead in the pipe toe. Following is a quote from a posting Nelson Denton wrote on making EM chests. The reason for this was on another posting though as I didn't see the reason listed in his article. ^^^^ a burning bit is used here - this is a metal or stone countersink = that has no flutes in it and it is rammed into the wood under the heavy = pressure of a drill press at high speed. The heat and friction compresses and literally burns the wood away leaving that characteristic black chest toe hole. this sort of work must be done "carefully" outdoors as the puffs of tremendous smoke and (possible fire!!!! ) will lure Boy Scouts and Indians from hundreds of miles away. ( a friend once warned me to be carefull what I "said" (puffed) while drilling a 4 rank mixture -apparently in Mohawk it was a not too flattering soliloquy about the chief's wife :-)) ) If I had my choice I'd just as soon not have to burn the holes either. = I've seen a couple chests where the toe holes were just a stepped hole. I think this was more for wood pipes though. Eric
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs]Making my own chest
From: "Bart Kleineweber" <
prinzipal8@hotmail.com <mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com>>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:47:24 CST
Hi Eric and list: Bob Roche at Tracker Tool Supply told me that burning is no longer necessary. The unburned wood does not react with the lead or any other = pipe materials, and even if it did, you're going to shellac the hole when you shellac the top of the toe board anyway. Shellac does not react with lead = either.
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Burning holes (was making own chests)
From: "Larry Chace" <
rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:21:23 -0500
I just made a quick (but superficial) check of my e-mail archive from PIPORG-L when there was lots of discussion about chest building, toe hole burning, and the like. Several professional builders offered comments. The summary is that everyone seems to do different things. Some builders burned the countersinked holes with heated irons. Some used friction, by spinning a stone or steel cone in a high-speed drill press and pressing into the already countersunk holes. Others didn't pre-countersink before burning. Some burned *pine* to avoid problems with "pine stuff" interacting with the pipe toes. Some did not burn poplar because it didn't contain thos nasty chemicals. Some burned *oak* to avoid the problems, also claiming that *pine* would not cause the problems. Others claimed = the burning was done to smooth out the countersunk holes. You get the idea. I've used the "spinning stone" method, and it works quite well except that = most small conical grinding stones have a 90-degree angle but most countersinks have an 84-degree angle (I think those are the correct numbers). As a result, the stone will tend to re-form the countersink slightly. It probably doesn't matter. Oh, I forgot -- some folks shellac first, and then use spnning stones or steel to burnish the shellaced countersunk holes. Some don't finish the toe holes at all. Some shellac the bottoms of the toe boards (where the valves, of whatever type, hit), some *lacquer* the bottoms (to avoid stickiness of shellac), and others don't finish the bottoms at all (to avoid the stickiness of whatever finish). Perhaps (perhaps) more important is to make sure that the borings are nice = and smooth (some folks use narrow heated burning irons for that!) and that = the edges of the holes where the valves hit are very gently rounded over = so as to allow a nice smooth airflow into the hole leading up to the pipe toe. The AIO's video tape "Electric Chests -- Heroes or Heathens" gives Chuck Kegg's view on that topic. He uses a 1/16" round-over bit in a dedicated router to smooth the edges; he said that sandpaper on a finger will also work but is less of a "production" method. He also makes the valve hole (if you will) 1/4" smaller than the valve so that there is a 1/8" wide "donut" to serve as a valve seat. That tends to increase the effective pressure against the valve, helping it to stay closed and to not = bounce. Another important consideration is the gasketing -- neoprene is offered by = several vendors but there has been some experience in the theatre organ world, at least, showing that it will tend to relax and not provide as good a seal as the old-fashioned packing leather. This is especially important = if you do *not* use compression springs on the screws; once the wood = starts to shrink, then only the built-in expansion tendencies of the packing material stands between you and wind leaks! OSI sells compresion springs, = and you also need a flat washer against the wood and another under the screw head (a conical washer for flat-headed screws). Tighten the screws such that the compression springs still have some "give", in case the wood = expands before it shrinks. When you layout the toe board, you can attach a pattern board or even the rack board and pilot-drill them both at once. That will tend to increase the probability that the pipes will stand straight up and will save much measuring and cursing when trying to make the rackboard. The use of store-bought items such as stair treads is an interesting subject. Clearly, professional builders will not find that an attractive technique, but for home builders there might well be significant = advantages in such an approach. Just be sure to give everything a coat or two or three of shellac (white or orange, your choice) to make it look "organic"! (By the way, there was a great deal of interesting discussion on PIPORG-L back in '93, '94', and '95 about pipe organ construction methods. Those items are present in the PIPORG-L archives, although it might be somewhat laborious to try to read them all. You can perform searches, though, and I'd recommend that very highly.) Larry Chace
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Subject: Expansion chambers, 601s, and the like
From: "Larry Chace" <
rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>>Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:54:10 -0500
Eric Sagmuller asked about expansion chambers and so on. In the AIO video = about that type of action, a presentation by builder Chuck Kegg, there is some interesting commentary. Chuck indicated that some of the important considerations are valve bounce = and valve closure, and he said that both aspects can be helped by using expansion chambers that consist of as large a boring as possible immediately above the valve. The pressure of the wind against the valve = is proportional to the area of the hole opened by the valve, and "bigger is better". He suggests that the valve be 1/4" larger in diameter than the opening and that the opening be at least 1/2", thereby suggesting a = minimum valve size of 3/4". Even if the actual toe hole is smaller (to keep the pipes from falling through!), this larger hole is desireable. He bores "down" with an appropriate bit for the actual toe hole and then counterbores "up" with = the larger bit. Depending upon the topboard thickness, some degree of expansion chamber will result, but perhaps more important is the larger valve hole. He also very gently rounds over the edge of the valve hole, using a 1/16" round-over bit in a router. A mild twist of a piece of sandpaper could also provide that rounding. The intent is to smooth the windflow as it enters the valve hole. I believe that he uses toeboards that are about 1-3/8" thick, with = somewhat thicker ones being used in the case of mixtures, where there is a horizontal boring to connect the pipes for a given note. Larry Chace
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That's interesting. I have some 5/8" valves I was going to use for my 1' Sifflute and other "small" pipes but it would be cheap enough to replace the valve seats with 3/4" ones. > >Even if the actual toe hole is smaller (to keep the pipes from >falling through!), this larger hole is desireable. He bores "down" >with an appropriate bit for the actual toe hole and then >counterbores "up" with the larger bit. Depending upon the topboard >thickness, some degree of expansion chamber will result, but perhaps >more important is the larger valve hole. I wonder how much bigger the valve and boring should be than the actual toe hole. I'm sure one could over do this where the valve gets too large(slow) for the small pipe. This method would give a moderate expansion chamber which I suspect would be fine for the smaller pipes, but the larger the pipe gets the less effect this larger boring would have. I have a copy of a post Nelson Denton sent in to pipeorg-l a couple years ago showing how he constructs expansion chamber chests. He uses 4 layers of 3/4" plywood with the middle two bored as large as possible for expansion. This would give a much larger chamber but I question if it's really necessary, also it makes for an expensive and heavy chest. Eric
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Subject: Re: Expansion chambers, 601s, and the like
From: "Larry Chace" <
rlc1@etnainstruments.com <mailto:rlc1@etnainstruments.com>>Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:52:12 -0500 Without having true information, let me *guess* that Chuck Kegg's suggestion of a 3/4" valve as the smallest might be due to (1) the fact that the 1/16" round-over router bits usually come with a ball bearing = that is 1/2" in diameter, so a *smaller* valve hole than 1/2" would not be practical or (2) he wanted to standardize on a few sizes of valves. It is true that the 601s are available with a 5/8" valve; that is the smallest size. According to Chuck's formula, the valve hole should then = be 3/8". His goals was to keep the valve hole as large as possible. If you place a 5/8" valve over a 1/8" valve hole (because a little pipe might = need only such a tiny toe hole), then there would be little pressure effect acting upon the valve to close it and keep it closed. Back on 1 August 1995, organ builder Allan Ontko suggested PIPORG-L: (1) bore the "toe hole" as if the pipes were voiced with open toes, (2) make the valve hole at least 30-50% larger in diameter than the toe hole, and (3) use a valve that is 1/4" larger than the valve hole. He also applies polyurethane varnish to all surfaces of his toeboards; he likes Stulb's Paste Varnish ("which looks like not-quite-congealed Jell-O"). (PIPORG-L on 19 Sept 1995) And, as Eric wrote, you can always get replacement valves from OSI and = glue them on in place of the old small ones. Larry Chace
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] building windchests
From: "Jimmy" <
jrbaird@erols.com <mailto:jrbaird@erols.com>>Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:51:08 -0500
STEVE PITTS wrote: > > What commonly made tool could be used for creating the tapered holes on = a > toe-board? I use a cone shaped rotary stone, put in the drill press at high speed, and it will both make the cone shape, and burn it also. I pre-drill the hole first. Jimmy Baird
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] building windchests
From: "Jimmy" <
jrbaird@erols.com <mailto:jrbaird@erols.com>> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:05:29 -0500Kelvin Smith wrote: > > Where can you buy the rotary stone? > > Kelvin They come in about an inch or more diameter, with a 1/4" shank. Most hardware stores carry them for a few dollars each. Jimmy
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Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] building windchests
From: "Tim Bovard" <
tmbovard@arkansas.net <mailto:tmbovard@arkansas.net>>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:04:33 -0600
At 04:58 PM 3/7/01 -0600, you wrote: > >What commonly made tool could be used for creating the tapered holes on a >toe-board? > Hello, everyone! At our shop, we don't burn toeholes. Smaller ones are created with Weldon Countersinks, after the actual 'hole' is drilled in the new toeboard. These are available in a wide range of sizes which will produce up to approx a 2" OD toehole (appx. 1 1/4" boring). The tools are not common hardware store items, and are not necessarily cheap to purchase, but they *are* available if you search for them and they do an *excellent* job. For larger holes (pedal pipes, etc), we bore the hole and chamfer with a router. I have used the burning-stone method before, and would caution anyone = using this method to make certain there is water handy, and good ventilation. Burning bits of sawdust and pitch get flung everywhere, potentially creating quite a flammable hazard if not paid attention to. Also, copious amounts of smoke. Tim Bovard Little Rock AR
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] building windchests
From: "Tom Dimock" <
tad1@cornell.edu <mailto:tad1@cornell.edu>>Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:48:35 -0500 >>
I would love to know where to buy larger countersinks. The biggest I = have >> been able to find is 3/4". MSC <
www.mscdirect.com <http://www.mscdirect.com>> has pages of countersinks. On page 160 of their catalog they list HSS Single Flute Countersinks in sizes up to 2", with your choice of 60, 82, 90, or 100 degrees. Not really cheap - even the less expensive import version of the 2" countersink is $65.57 (and it has = a 3/4" shank, which you may have a problem with). On the next page they = have a 3" countersink for the low (not!) price of $268.72! A 2" countersink = with a 1/2" shank made by Cleveland Twist Drill will set you back a cool = $130.95. MSC is a nice company to deal with, and their catalog will show you all sorts of stuff that you desparately need, but didn't even know existed-----------------------------------------
Subject: Constantine's Wood Worker Supply
From: "Forrest Radley" <
radley@budget.net <mailto:radley@budget.net>>Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:32:49 -0700
At 08:40 AM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote: "Constantine's wood worker supply" mailorder house carries a fine line of solid filled >birch faced plywoods. They're located in the Bronx, NY 1-800-223-8807. >John V They also have a fine WEB site. Click on the following:
<http://www.constantines.com/>--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Questions about actions and chests
From: <
Mpmollerorgan@aol.com <mailto:Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:46:08 EDT
In a message dated 9/13/01 9:39:01 PM,
larry.covington@St-Louis.org <mailto:larry.covington@St-Louis.org> = writes: >Hi Roy, >Couple of thoughts for you from my experience. Moller Chests are good >AND BULKY! depending on the date they are fairly easy to re-leather and re-wire >but make no mistake this is a CHORE. Y This was my reply I sent to the gent in part; My Moller chest was 550# with the rack boards off it and I believe both primary boards and of course the wind plenum screwed to the underside. = These are not chests you can simply move around by yourself and flip over = andback alone while working on it. Regarding dead notes; dead notes can come from a variety of causes, often an electrical problem = or the pouch to the note has a hole in it. In any case, code requires if you remove the organ or alter it, all the = old cloth covered wiring must be replaced. Typically you will find green = colored cloth covered wires, hundreds of them bundled all together from the organ = to the console with no clue which wire goes where. Pneumatic pouches; It's not that the work is "difficult" and yes the pneumatic pouches come = out in sections, theres a foto on my web site of one with 3 pouches, it's delicate and tedious work and the other problem is the pitman chests have these little wood dowels called shifters in the rails between the various ranks inside the chest, a little leather disk goes on each end and = embedded in a small hole reemed into the wood, and sealed in with paper. The air = goes in that little cavity and "shifts" that dowel to one side or the other depending on which duplex stop is selected. There are lead tubes topside = that run all this. The dowels tend to get stuck, the little leather disks tends to dry out, = get brittle and not seal well. One of the things organ techs I know like to mention is how when (not IF) these shifters get stuck they can = *sometimes* unstick them by WHOMPING the underside of the chest with a large hunk of wood, mallet or whatever to loosen the stuck pitmans. If it doesn't then that means hunting down the one stuck by removing = bottom boards and the paper seals. This can be made worse by moving and torquing an old chest by carrying it = out of the chamber and down stairs, around corners, into a truck and the = truck ride, temperature and humidity change etc. It takes a lot of time to rebuild one of these chests and their primary valves! Here is what I ran into for this type of chest; Mine had a 73 note primary valve section for the great and one for the = swell, if you don't know what primary valves are they are mounted in a board like = a 2x4 in size, the length of the chest, with bores and cross-bores in the = wood, two felt and leather disks and four leather nuts on a thin brass threaded = rod connected to a small leather pouch disk. The pouch inflates and deflates = and moves those disks in and out to control the air. What you WILL find is the thin leather pouches will be very brittle, some = may be leaking and also mice like to gnaw leather so there may be some = with actual holes in them. Replacing a few is a waste of time because at any = time any of the others can and will fail because they already have age on them, = and once the chest is all up and all the pipes in, little room to work etc = they can be a real pain to deal with. The felt/leather disks you replace with new ones along with the 4 leather nuts and the little circle of pouch leather ( about 2" diameter) 146 = pouches and 392 disks, then adjust them for proper opening/closing clearances. Costs for this phase I came up with; The nuts are now made of plastic, they are about $5 / 100, the two = primary action boards will need close to 600 Leather pouches; about $60/100 the above will need 146 Fiber/felt/leather disks, about $88/ 100 you will need 146 90 OHM magnets if any are burnt out run $5 Then you rewire the magnets that control these, 73 on the sw and 73 on the = gt The pouches inside the chest, there is one pouch for each pipe, they vary = in size, will average about $85/100 so assuming you have 7 ranks, and 2 or 3 are duplexed you might have about 500 pipes, or 500 pouches in other words. Next, the bottom boards on the chest used cork or more likely leather gasketing, if it's still good and seals you are fortunate, if not then you = have a lot of leather to cut to size AND then you need those hole punchers = to punch holes into the leather where the air holes and screws go through. = You may find screws for bottom boards all stripped out from overtightening to stop leaks, mine had several like that and several that were probably lost = and replaced with other scrwork properly in the end! It becomes in my opinion a case of a total rebuild or a replacement, because once you start piecemealing parts that are bad and leaving any = that are marginal you are begging for trouble down the road, and it can be a = real pain having to tear stuff apart to get at a leaky or non working internal part while laying on your back under a big chest. With mine I had a romantic notion on a restoration of the pitman chest, I = got as far as re doing the Great primary pouches and buying some of the pitman retainers and shifters before It occurred to me how annoyingly = complex this chest was and how many potential problems, leaks, cracks and other problems could develop. It also had a cracked end rail and some other problems. It was a factory produced item, of no historic value, so, In the end I replaced it, saved the 146 magnets and the toeboards/racking and built 4 = new 2 rank chests from the lumber so they would be easy to work on and move = by myself if need be, AND I could put two in one side and two in the other = side and have separate expression on the Gt and Sw and walkboards between each chest which was impossible with the original chest. I can lift each chest by myself, two large bung boards on them come off = with a few wing nuts, none of the rows and rows of 4" or 5" long slotted screws = like the original bottom boards had! This is not to say building new is cheaper, but what you build WILL work = and since it's all new it will work reliably for a long time to come. You may go with a DE action as the most simple, I chose a different way = and kept the pouches. It's not easy to describe my modification to the original design using the = pouch boards in email either, it's something you have to see, but the = pouches are all to be exhausted by chest magnets, no pitmans, shifters, duplexing. As far as getting an old organ and then extensively revoicing and changing = all of the pipe work to do what they were never designed to do, It almost sounds like buying a used car and then replacing the motor, changing the transmission, painting it a different color because the pink is ugly, replacing the rims with chrome, replacing the radio with a CD player and = so on. One winds up spending more doing that than just buying the car they wanted in the first place instead of trying to make something into = something else. Lowering wind pressure on the above pipes; Lowering wind pressure is very difficult! My pipes were voiced on 5" and I = hoped I could go with a smaller blower and 4" but when I tried some on 4" they didn't work, on 4-1/2 they were windy and weak, it became clear they = HAD to be at 5" or would have to have complete revoicing. The problem with lowering pressure is you have to lower the pipe mouth cut-ups, now that is a neat trick because the metal or wood is GONE so to lower the cut ups of the mouths you have to "add" metal, what is done at = my shop is the pipe is cut at the seam of the languid, a small amount of the pipe is cut out and the pipe is resoldered to the foot. You can't do this with wood pipes, so a piece of wood has to be glued in, shaped etc. at BEST I bet you can only lower maybe 1/2" pressure without doing this work, but 4-1/2 down to 3-1/2 is just too much and can start to run into scaling and other problems since pipes are really built to work on a specific pressure, and if you are trying to get a "smaller" sound out of big pipes it just doesn' t work = well. It's like driving a car 10 MPH in 5th gear/overdrive. The amount of labor involved with all this is in my opinion about as much = as simply having a new rank made or finding one that was made to work on a lower pressure. RAISING pressure is a whole other thing, MUCH easier! You could add by adding ranks on offset chests, using DE as the easiest = and simply wire the magnets in and add the air line. Brand new pipes run about $2000 to $3,000 a rank, but as a comparison I = was quoted (by a top notch voicer) $2,400 to completely clean, repair, = revoice, with new tongues, new tuning wires, new tongue wedges for my 73 pipe Oboe rank, plus shipping to him and shipping back. I can't afford that or to = pay someone to wash, relacquer, undent and repair pipes which I can do = myself, but his policy was he had to do ALL of that work himself. So the question there is do you buy used and spend $1000 to $2400 to make them like new or spend $2000 to $3000 to buy new to begin with...-----------------------------
I don't thinks there's anything wrong with Direct Electric chests if one = uses the good magnets and on larger pipes at least, have an expansion chamber between the valve and the pipe foot. In an offset toeboard being made new it's easy enough to sandwich 3 layers of 3/4 apply plywood and channel the = center layer using a jigsaw before gluing up. Reisner magnets also come with a pouch as an assembly, so they are essentially an electro-pneumatic setup, chances of finding those used are next to none. If Ross was looking for the 90 or 150 ohm style magnets like Moller used, = and Reisner makes thru OSI they run NEW about $5 each, few people would bother = collecting those up to sell used since they have two wires and two screws each, and for someone to sit down and remove all that it wouldn't be worth = their time. Oddly enough the little replacement armature disks run almost half what = the entire assembly costs new from OSI! I'm looking at buying a bunch of these magnets new, I had about 150 Moller = 90 ohm magnets, enough to finish one two rank chest. I have about 100 old = Kilgen magnets but they have a different style cap I don't like and smaller = exhaust ports, and the lead wires are too short to use without splicing in a jury rigged piece of wire from it to the brass pins I use. But at $5 each for brand new, that isn't bad, terrible thing is when you = need 73 for a rank that's $360 plus time 6 ranks that need magnets. Id rather spring for new over time instead of mixing and matching used = junk ones
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Subject: Pipe Spacing
From: "The Schneider Family" <
arpschneider@starband.net <mailto:arpschneider@starband.net>>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:10:18 -0600
Paul Soulek wrote: > I am getting to the stage of building the chest for my 61-note 4' Open > Diapason rank. What is the proper spacing to have between pipes? <snip> > Any tips? The best practice allows at least the diameter of the pipe in front of the mouth for speaking room. The rest is leaving enough room so that you can reach the tuning slides comfortably. Faithfully, Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO
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Paul Soulek wrote: > How about spacing of pipes in the same row? That's > where the 1 inch came in. I forgot about asking how > far to have the rows spaced apart, thanks for that > information! Paul, I would settle on a proportion. What we usually do is use round metal pipe patterns laid-out on a piece of brown wrapping paper before committing to it. (Now, we use CADD, of course!). It's mostly a point of getting the spacing to "look right"! One inch may be too narrow in the larger pipes, and a bit "generous" in the trebles. It should vary in size, especially if you have this in mind for decorative display (en-facade) and not just strictly from a functional standpoint. Faithfully, Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO
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Subject: direct electric valves
From: <
lcollins@premiermeansbusiness.com <mailto:lcollins@premiermeansbusiness.com>>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:10:14 -0500
Hi List ! Hope some of you can help me with a couple of questions. I have two chests which use a direct electric magnet assembly in which the coil stands vertically, the armature swings toward the coil and operates the valve which is on an L shaped bracket attached to the armature. The assembly mounts to the soundboard over the pipe foot holes on a stamped steel base that has a valve seat formed into it. The mounting is with two small screws through ears that project from the round section of the base where the valve seat is formed. The rest of the base has a plastic (nylon ?) bearing for the armature and the pin that secures it and an extended section for mounting the coil. I have two chests that are full of these. Most have 3/4" valves and a few are 1 1/4". Coils on the smaller ones are nominally 90 ohms (except one that reads 120 ohms but functions OK).All I can find in parts catalogs is the Reisner 601 type that has a coil = parallel to the sound board. The chests were part of a Wicks organ, but I am pretty sure these chests were not original Wicks. Anybody recognize these from my descriptively challenged prose ? Any ideas where I can get a few more of the 3/4" variety and the thin cork gaskets that go between them and the board ? Any help is appreciated. Maybe I should replace with the new Reisners ? There is room to do so. Also, any tips on temporary repairs to regulator leather? The regulators have fairly good leather except for some small (under 2") cracks at the corner folds. I'd like to fix that temporarily to get started setting the pipework up for tests and wait to releather until I'm ready to mount the regulators in the final position. Again,all help is appreciated. Best Wishes to all, Lloyd Collins
lcollins@premiermeansbusiness.com <mailto:lcollins@premiermeansbusiness.com>-----------------------------------
Sounds to me like some I've seen made by Klann. I don't think they've = made that particular magnet for awhile now, but I could be wrong at that. Frankly, I was not ever impressed much with that magnet design -- the metal valve seat/gasket arrangement is trouble prone with the passage of time, when the gasket dries out and compresses and they start to leak. (soft-cyphers for DAYS...<g>!) Reisners (and others) tend to be = more trouble-free once they're installed properly. If your chests still work OK, there's not a particular reason to change them all out -- but I wouldn't worry much about trying to find matching ones for future usage. >Also, any tips on temporary repairs to regulator leather? The regulators >have fairly good leather except for some small (under 2") cracks at the >corner folds. I'd like to fix that temporarily to get started setting the >pipework up for tests and wait to releather until I'm ready to mount the >regulators in the final position. ] For temporary patching, do just that -- carefully glue appropriately sized = bits of new leather over the cracked areas. Probably will work best if = you remove the reservior top and prop it up from within, while you apply the patches and allow the glue to dry. Be careful to keep the patches off = wood areas of the ribs, so they will all go away cleanly when you strip and releather the reserviors properly. Good luck! Tim Bovard Little Rock, AR
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Thanks for the help
From: <
tmbovard@earthlink.net <mailto:tmbovard@earthlink.net>>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:10:48 -0500
At 05:35 PM 8/28/2002 -0500, you wrote: >There are two or three that have already been replaced at some time with >what looks like Wicks valves. The leather/felt pad just closes on the = hole >in the board---they should have some type of valve seat shouldn't they ? Hi, Lloyd! Original Wicks valves in older chests will usually have a valve seat -- a turned wooden button sort of thing, glued to the underside of the toeboard = around the toehole, against which the valve comes to rest. At some point, = Wicks abandoned the usage of the valve seats, and their newer work has the = same leather valve face seating directly against the flat underside of the = toeboard (as, in fact, most other electric chests I've seen, and as you = are describing). As long as the armature gap is maintained at a correct size to allow the valve to operate, either method will work equally well. (assuming that = the underside of the toehole is bored cleanly in a flat surface, of course!) Remember that most electric pipe valve units do not have to actually open very far to allow copious wind to the toehole -- if the valve seat moves away from the toeboard - at all - when the magnet is energized, it's probably enough opening for all but the biggest toeholes. Magnets that = are gapped too widely can act strange -- sometimes slow or irregular to open, sometimes slow to close, sometimes wanting to physically bounce back and forth (note: this is not so-called "valve bounce", which is an electrical phenomonon* ). Over-wide armatures will also require more electric = current to work reliably. Good luck, and happy valve-adjusting! <g> Tim Bovard Little Rock AR *many old electric-action organs with non-solid-state relay equipment may be heard to have a mild case of electrical valve bounce (the "wiccups" <lol>), if one listens closely... PS -- additional hint: if/when you ever have an older magnet out for service, or if you replace one with another used unit, do yourself a favor = and add a small drop of light oil to the hinge pin before putting it all back together. They often will like that.... ;-)
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Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Thanks for the help
From: "Drew Taylor" <
drewt@loritsu.com <mailto:drewt@loritsu.com>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:57:13 -0400
A while back I aquired a large 3 or 4 rank windchest packed full of those = Klann valves. My plan was to remove a few and reinstall them on a new chest I = had built for a flute, which I did. Here are a few things to watchout for: The valves work okay, but have given me much more trouble than the wicks/reisner/peterson etc direct pallets I have. First of all, I should = have just used the old windchest with the valves already installed. The valve = seat sat on a cork gasket which did a good job of sealing between the valve = seat and the topboard. When I reinstalled the valves into the new chest, the cork rings had dried = and stuck to the topboard, breaking up when i removed the valves. I had to = sand off all the old cork flakes, the seal was still okay (no ciphers) but not = nearly as good. Next time however I will purchase or try to purchase replacement = cork gaskets. Also the armature is easy to bend off, causing clickiness and/or ciphers = during operation. And probably the most annoying part to me is the leads which = tend to snap off from the coil forcing me to resolder the lead from the coil. Once these valves get installed and are fine-tuned they tend to work just = as well as the other makes I have. I can't speak about the long-term = operation since I have only had them installed for 6 months or so. P.S. Do your valves have the Klann logo and part number written on the = coil wrapper? If they don't I can send along the part number if you are = requesting more information from Klann. -Drew