Subject: blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:23:55 -0600

Hello out there! I'm just about to the point in my organ refurbishment where I'll need to get the blower up and running. It's an Orgoblo, 2 hp, 5 in. wind, 3 phase I opened the oil caps (probably not the correct term) to see if it had any lubricant in it. It does. It has a very viscous substance somewhat thicker than bearing grease in it. Is this what it's supposed to look like? What sort of lubricant is recommended, and where can you get it? I don't know when this blower ran last. Is it imperative that I take it to an electrical motor shop for maintenance before I power it up?

Thanks!! -Brian Graham Lawrence, KS Estey II/18

----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:37:55 EST

Brian--- In my opinion, it would be advisable to take the end caps off the motor = and clean out the bearing cellars, remove and wash out the bearings, and repack/reassemble with a good grade of ball and roller bearing grease, I = have used Lubrico-M-6 for over 40 years with excellent success. If this is = within your abilities,,, why not? If not, a motor shop could put it back in first = class condition for you, and also megger the windings to see if there has been deterioration from grease being flung around inside by overgreasing, which is the most common fault that one finds. Replacement motors for the Orgoblo's are a bit tuff these days, because of = the long shafts. I would certainly, one way or the other, give the motor a = good checkout before powering up. For what its worth--- ---Roc

--------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:41:16 -0400

Please correct me if I am wrong..... I have heard that 3 in 1 oil is not good to lubricate electric motors. It seems to me that I was talking with someone that has had motors burn out because of this, I think that it was a furnace man. He recommended using car motor oil, which will not end up baking on the surface of the motor shaft. Would anyone here Recommend ,Car Motor Oil????????

Daniel

----------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:46:02 -0400

I also have a second blower of 1/2 hp ,It is a lot smaller than my big 1hp = blower I need to get a motor for it that has I think a 3/4" width shaft by about = I would say a 4 inch shaft long I haven’t really Measured it the motor is shot The windings is really bad Is there any hope for a motor like this Can I get a reasonably priced motor ,what would they start at in $

Daniel

-------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:09:45 EST

Daniel-- In my opinion and experience, 20W,,,,,is the motor oil to use. Multi-vis = oils like 10W30 and 20W50 did not exist when most of those motors were manufactured, the shaft varnish is one of the most prevalent results from = using 3inOne oil, which is really about 7-8 weight and does not provide a = good film of oil between plain bearing and shaft so causes some heating, which produces varnish type compounds on the shaft, which slows = the motor some, more at startup, and causes more heating, and a downhill = spiral till the shaft seizes. Make sure the oil rings that carry up the oil over the top of the plain bearing are free to turn, you can check that with the top big cap open. Hope this helps you—

Cheers, ---Roc

---------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:36:00 -0500 I took my 3-phase motor to a shop and had them check it out and run it. = Oil I use in mine is 30-weight motor oil, and bearing grease in the grease = cup. Works for me! Rick

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:37:59 -050

3-in-1 oil IS too light an oil to use. Use 30-weight motor oil.

---------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] blower motor questions, lubricant, etc.

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:52:56 -0600

It's common here in Wisconsin to replace the motors with newer ones by = having a new shaft made, fabricating a mount with pillow block bearings, and then belt-driving the shaft with a new motor. This also allows you to increase the blower output by increasing the shaft speed. (assuming the use of a much = more powerful motor of course). Floating around somewhere on the internet is my excel spreadsheet which allows you to calculate the correct motor size for a given required output.

Kurt

----------------------------------------------------

Subject: Blowers and Introduction

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:50:30 -0700

Hello to all, First about blowers. It is wise to ask these questions. If I had it to do over again, I would take my blower motor in for a rebuild before using it. As it is, I am in the market for a blower now because the motor died. I took it into a shop to see if it could be repaired and they said it could be rewound and put in good shape for a couple hundred dollars, but when they took it apart they found a lot of irrepairable damage which probably could have been avoided if I had had it worked over before I used it. Of course, I don't know that, maybe it already had serious problems, but for the price it is worth having it looked at. About my organ project. I built my own house around the organ and have a sizable room to work with. I have bought two organs and combined them, along with pipes and parts from other places. I had 28 ranks playing and was ready to hook up 36 ranks. Just before Christmas I acquired a 4 manual Moller drawknob console and am making plans to computerize it with an Artisan control system. Just after I committed to buying the console our car gave out and we had = to replace that, and about a week after Christmas the blower quit and I will have to replace that, or at least the motor. So that's the adventure of = it. The objective of my organ is to have as large and versatile an instrument as possible on the budget. Second to that has been to get something = playing with what I have to work with. I have told myself many times, just get it working, we'll worry about how it sounds later. But I had some = requirements in what I acquired. I didn't want any direct electric chests, nor any open toe voiced pipes. I wanted pipework from before about 1960. That is not to say I don't appreciate the more classical approaches, they just didn't fit my plans or my budget. I wasn't looking for a practise instrument, because I had nothing to practise for unless I had an instrument of my own worth performing on. On the organist side, I have a master's degree in organ performance, and like Mike Ohman, have played recitals at the Salt Lake Tabernacle as a guest organist. Mike and I are well acquainted and I got his advice on the blower right off. His advice was to repair the motor. That was based on ball park price I was given by the people at the motor repair place before they had seen the motor. Now that they've looked at it, I have to reconsider. Back to blowers. It was handy to have all these postings on the subject today. The options are to get another used blower, get a replacement motor for this one, or to buy a new blower. I talked to Mr. White at White = Blower and he recommended a 5 hp blower which would run about $4000 total. It has the advantages of being new and therefore (presumably) reliable, also it = is relatively small and light weight. It could be shipped here rather than me having to go get it. I also read Kurt's posting with interest. Maybe that would be a lower cost and faster way of accomplishing the same objective. It would be easier to install (no relocating windlines.) The other option is to find some used blower. I had a lead on one, but it may have fizzled out. I am a little worried about how to make sure it would last a while. I would be happy to hear suggestions and recommendations. Kelvin Paris, ID

-----------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blowers and Introduction

Kelvin--- If you would give me all the nameplate particulars on your failed = motor. I will check my collection and see if I have a good used one for you,,,and = the price will be right! I have never heard a belt driven Spencer Orgoblo that = was as quiet as with its original motor and new bearings!

Regards, ---Roc

-----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: blower motor thermal cutouts & 3 in 1 oil

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:27:19 EST

3 in 1 has a paraffin base that can harden to something like super glue. Using it on any part of an organ will set things up for disaster. Don't = even use it on the vibraharp shafts. Use sewing machine oil because it never hardens just evaporates as it oxidizes. When a blower motor heats up and opens the thermal safety cutout there may = be more of a problem than the larger fan. If the organ is not being played = and the thermal cutout still trips then you are looking at a bad motor winding = or some other problem. The only time an organ blower motor is using high current is when wind is being drawn. If you have enough wind leaks in = your instrument, that might do it but I doubt you could have that many without noticing the tornado in the chamber. If you have a clamp-on ammeter, = check to see if all legs of the 3 phase power are pulling identical current. If = you have single phase, then with nothing playing, measure the current. At = idle (not moving ANY air) the motor should only be drawing a fraction of = the full rated power listed on the motor plate. e.g.: 3hp 60Hz 220VAC 10Amp measures 1Amp at idle. Any large draw indicates either motor coil damage, = friction within the blower, a tight bearing, a large wind loss, etc.. Remember to be careful, most electrical work on large hp blower motors has = local code restrictions requiring a licensed electrician for good reasons.

Best to the list, Al Sefl Guaranteed to be correct 50% of the time!

------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower progress

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:41:22 -0000

Brian

-------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Two Phase Spencer Blower

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:48:43 EDT

I think you have a single phase motor there. On single phase you have two 110 leg's/( wires) plus a common/ground wire. = That gives you 220. On three phase you have three 110 or 220 or 440 legs plus the ground. My best guess is that you have a single phase 220 motor on this blower. House current is usually two 110 legs coming from the pole with a common/ground. Older houses do have 110. Do you know if your house is 110 = or 220? If you call your gas and electric company, they can probably come = out and tell you. There are typically single phase and three phase motors/wiring. Have a nice memorial day( don't zzzaaaaapppp yourself today ) :) Jest kidding!

Dennis Wheezr

---------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Two Phase Spencer Blower

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:52:07 EDT

Hi Russ-- and listers that might be interested-- I was one of the guys that helped John Burns take the organ/blower out = over the weekend. Yep,,it is a 2 phase motor, sez so right on the name plate, Woods, 2hp, = and the blower was originally on a TO in a downtown area, and removed in the early 40's to a church in a former coal mining town in NE Pennsy. It was only the second 2 phase motor I had seen on a Spencer in 50+ years, = and it had no capacitor information on the plate. I had wondered as well, if a capacitor arrangement could be employed to shift phase enuf to run this motor. It perhaps should be noted , that a = 2HP Century single phase, 120-240 v repulsion start induction run motor had = been double V belted to the back of the Woods where the generator originally = was and that was what was running the blower for a long number of years, as evidenced by the age of the wooden platform fastened to the skids on the Spencer that held the Century. There were a number of vibration issues = thru some critical speeds when running the Spencer,,,however, they could be = from a number of things in my opinion. Its also possible that the original Woods = 2 phase motor was in need of rewinding, which is why the Century was added,,but I somehow doubt that, we did not meter check the Woods motor, nor was it important to the overall removal project. At any rate--I am most interested as well in hearing the collective wisdom of this great list as to how to proceed. By the way,,, I am in no way attempting to circumvent John Burn's post, I just know he's tired from a VERY busy "organic" weekend, but as he said, more on that later. <G> Regards, ---Roc L V Rockafellow

----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Two Phase Spencer Blower

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:43:39 -0500

Hmmm, sorta seems to me that if you have 90 degrees one way and 270 degrees the other that adds up to pretty close to 180 degrees from each other. Somehow or other that kinda seems pretty similar to the good old single phase 230 volt standard that many of us use today. Wouldn't throwing a phase converter in the works just complicate matters and reduce efficiency by about 40 percent?? I'm also a little curious, if you've got two phases and one is 90 degrees and the other is 270 degrees, what are they out of phase with?? Since there are only two phases they can only be referenced to each other. That still comes up 180 degrees which still sounds like single phase. I wonder if a standard single phase to two phase 'converter' might also be known as a transformer with a grounded center tap, - a very common item here in the middle west. Just some random thoughts that come to mind.

John

-----------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Two Phase Spencer Blower

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:01:10 -0700

I've put a page on my web site detailing wiring two-phase motors on = 3-phase power. I've got lots more info, but don't have the time to detail it. Suffice it to say that two-phase is NOT single phase.

-----------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Two Phase Spencer Blower

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:38:50 -0400

John

---------------------------------

Subject: relay for blower

Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:28:05 -0600

Hello, I was just going to hook my blower to be turned on by a relay controlled = by a 5 v power supply instead of a normal light switch. So the coils on the motor starter are currently operated by current from one of the 220 leads which goes through a light switch on the console and back to the = connection for the coil on the motor starter. Now I have a small relay on a 110 circuit which is turned on by a message from the console. I want to use that 110 to run the starter motor, but I don't understand the connections for that. It seems like the current ought to go back through the circuit = it came on but it looks like it will go back through the blower's circuit somewhere. That is confusing enough, but someone may be familiar enough with this stuff to understand what I am trying to say.

Thanks, Kelvin

-------------------------------

Hi, Kelvin I am a Registered Electrical Contractor and as such, have a lot of understanding about how to wire magnetic starters. First things first: The first thing you need to determine is the coil voltage, as this will make a difference as to how the coil starter is connected. Normally, the way the starter is wired is that the coil = voltage is the same as the starter voltage. So, if the starter is = controlling a 220 volt circuit the coil voltage is generally 220. This information ought to be able to be found somewhere within the starter; generally on the coil itself. The wiring from the coil that goes back into the starter is probably going to a normally closed contact which is interfaced with the "Heater" Elements. They are there so that if the blower overloads, the "Heater" Elements will cause the NC contact to open and thereby disconnect the blower by opening the coil in order to prevent damage (which is the purpose of a Magnetic Starter). The wire from the other side of the NC contact is then usually connected to the other incoming pole of the starter. If the starter is new, there are usually wiring diagrams included with it = which explain just how the various types of circuits which can control a starter coil should be connected. One such configuration would be to use push-button start/stop stations, while another, which is what you're wanting, requires a maintained contact in order for the starter coil to stay engaged. This is probably somewhat cryptic, but hopefully sufficient in order for you to be able to understand what you need to do.

Sincerely, Richard Schneider

-------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] relay for blower

Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:27:42 CDT

Hi fellow listers, I just bought a 15 amp single pole single throw wall light swith and mounted it on the console. I took one lead from the power line that supplied the blower and hooked it with 1pair 14 gauge insulated wire to the switch. It turns the blower on and off just fine by supplying or cutting off the power. I also have another light switch for the rectifier and a third one for the power supply that runs the Z-tronics relay.

Bart Kleineweber

------------------------------------------------

Hi Bart and all, You didn't say what the size of your blower is. Generally speaking, a = motor starter for any motor over 1 HP is worth the investment. The main = advantage of a starter is its overload detector, which is closely matched to the motor current draw. A plain switch on a line protected with a circuit breaker could easily = keep going while your motor cheerfully sets itself on fire or does something else equally repugnant. A second reason may not be as obvious. Consider what can happen during a power interruption. Much of the time the power simply disappears for a while then comes back on. If you had the blower running during the power outage and in the mean time you decide to leave the house without turning the organ off, you'll fine it running again when you get home. A motor starter is controlled with "start" and "stop" push buttons; when the power = fails, the starter's relay opens and won't close again after power is reapplied until you push the start button again. A less probable but certainly risky situation if you use a straight switch is if the power decides not to come up to full voltage or proceeds to rapidly turn on and off a few times. Either of these can damage the motor. For one horsepower or smaller blowers, it's still a good idea to have a starter. Regards,

------------------------------------

Subject: Re: starter relay for blower

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:18:38 EDT

A 15 Amp switch between the console, motor, and power: Kelvin! Should your house burn to the ground the insurance company can bow out because of the illegal wiring. You cannot get around the legal ramifications of NOT putting in a magnetic starter with both overload and thermal protection. Insurance companies fall back on the National Electrical Code when the trial begins and they always win. Point two is safety. If you are working around the blower and the cat hits the switch how many RPM will you be going before you get thrown out?

Think! Al Sefl

---------------------------------------------

Subject: motor starter

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:45:47 -0600

Hello, Thanks to those who offered their help and advice on the wiring change I needed to do on my blower. I stared at the motor starter for quite a while the other day and suddenly I realized how simple it was. I was able to hook it up the way I wanted and it worked fine. I did a pretty thorough job of confusing people with my previous posting. I am replacing my Klann console with a Moller drawknob console I acquired at Christmas time. The Moller console is on a rolling platform and I want to minimize the number of wires I have to string across the floor to hook it up. I have a power cord to plug into a regular outlet plus a catagory five wire which carries the communications for my Artisan contol system. There is a 5 volt signal on the cat 5 cable which goes up to the loft and activates a relay which turns on a 110v outlet up there. The power supply for the loft computer is plugged into that and there is another wire going to the blower room which powers coil in the starter motor to turn on the blower. It seemed like a strange arrangement for a single electrical = device to be using electricity from two different electrical circuits, one a 220v circuit and the other a 110 v circuit. But I saw that the coil could be disconnected from the 220 volt circuit and hooked up independently to the other circuit. Some jumpers also had to be moved to change it to 110 volt operation. For our Christmas program this year I am recruiting a small choir (16 people). Normally I like to have the console in the middle of the wall at the end of the room. But for the Christmas program I can move it against the side wall and have some limited space for the choir in the middle. It'll be lots of fun. We're going to sing Rick Elliot's arrangement of Silent Night, Mendelssohn's There Shall a Star from Jacob, Holst's Let all Mortal Flesh, Mack Wilberg's Away in a Manger and Rutter's Candellight Carol. I removed all the old wiring from the keyboards in the console and got all the computer stuff mounted. Then I hooked up enough stuff to get the on-off switch working. Next I need to wire everything up to the input boards.

Kelvin

----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:20:47 -0500 At 06:45 AM 6/26/00 -0600,

Kelvin Smith wrote: > . . . and there is another wire going >to the blower room which powers coil in the starter motor to turn on the >blower. Lest there be any confusion, DO NOT supply a steady signal from the Artisan relay to your motor starter. That will defeat several of its features. INSTEAD, arrange to supply a momentary contact closure in parallel with the Start button. (You did put these near the motor didn't you?) In that way, as I mentioned in my previous e Mail, if the power fails and comes back on when you are at the blower (in the words of the inimitable Al Sefl) "If you are working around the blower and the cat hits the switch how many RPM will you be going before you get thrown out?" PLEASE PLEASE - Listen to us. Regards to all,

--------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:55:51 -0500

More importantly, you should have (and in most cases are required by law = to have) an electrical disconnect at the blower. This should be capable of having a padlock installed to lock the disconnect in the "off" position. This disconnect should be used anytime the blower is serviced. A breaker is NOT a disconnect. Kurt

-------------------------------

I agree! My starter has such a switch incorporated into it. My blower starter is controlled remotely from the console via a simple on/off switch. If I need to work on the blower then I turn off the disconnect at the blower. That way there is no way the blower can be started up accidently. It also gives me a way to energize the blower, at the blower, if needed by leaving the organ switch on and using the disconnect switch to control it.

Eric

----------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:48:54 EDT

Eric--- In my opinion, using a simple on-off switch at the console to control your motor starter is not the safest practice. A momentary "START" contact and a momentary "STOP" (or break) contact type switch should be = used with a starter. With the simple on-off switch at the console the blower would automatically re-start upon resumption of supply voltageat the disconnect, say, after a power failure or brownout, when it might not be = desirable or wanted. A safer way for at blower testing would be to have another start-stop pushbutton switch station in parallel with the console = switch at the blower location. Regards, ---Roc

---------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:11:13 -0400

Roc, This also sounds like a good idea as far as safety is concerned. I haven't played many pipe organs though, and I'm just wondering if it's common practice to have a start/stop switch on the console of a pipe organ? On the few I've played I don't think this was the case. The only disadvantage I see to this is that when the organ is being played, if there is a small power glitch, then the organist would have to be aware to press the start button again or the organ will die out, rather than just resume normal operation on its own. Just my thoughts and maybe a bit confused, Eric

----------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:35:19 EDT

Hi Eric-- I think it is practice for a "tasteful" (non-industrial looking) start-stop switch on the console. I have seen several types applied that do not look like they were controlling something industrial most just being a red and a black pushbutton, with no legends on them, or in the earlier cases, a black and a white pushbutton switch. In the cases where industrial looking pushbutton stations were used, they most often were put under the bottom keyboard, or in some other out of the way location. One of the main advantages to having the momentary contact switches is so that overloads (heaters tripping in motor starter) will shut the blower down and keep it down till the cause is determined. If memory serves, there are National Electric Code stipulations and provisions having to do with remote operated start-stop switches.

Regards, ---Roc

----------------------------------------

Subject: motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:06:10 -0400

My installation has a switch on the console for the blower. This trips a relay down by the blower, supplying power to it. There is a disconnect switch with a fuse mounted right on the Kinetic Can. Perfectly legal by codes

------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:12:51 -0400 >

If you turn the organ off by accident, you are supposed to wait a few minuets before hitting the start button again. Dennis This may be a good reason to not have the organ restart after a power interruption. I've noticed this on my Spencer that what happens is that as the blower winds down, if one tries to restart it, if the motor start winding hasn't kicked in yet, the motor has a very hard time getting the blower up to speed again on the run winding only. This of course only applies to single phase motors. Three phase motors have full starting torque no matter where you start the motor in its rated RPMs.

Eric

-------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:34:41 EDT

Exactly so on the Spencer Orgoblo's with Century or other repulsion-start induction run motors. IF the incoming power is removed long enuf for the motor to get down in rpm's much below its rated speed,,,but not low enuf to shift back to repulsion start mode, its gonna have a very hard time getting back up to speed if at all from my experience. And of course, in the older days, single phase and repulsion start was "de rigeur" in outlying areas away from cities. A good thing in their favor is that they are VERY easy starting "accross the line" without annoying light blinking and dimming to any extent on adequately wired circuits. ---Roc who likes repulsion-start motors UNTIL he has to get inside to play with necklaces and rushes then he wants polyphase, lol.

----------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:48:07 -0500 At 11:34 AM 7/18/00 -0400,

Roc wrote: who likes repulsion-start motors UNTIL he has to get inside to play with necklaces and brushes, then he wants polyphase, lol. One of these days I'm going to make some new necklace elements to fit the 2 HP and 3 HP Century R.I. motors unless, that is, you (Roc or anyone else) have a source for these*. I gave up about a year ago. *The successor to Century Electric, Gould National, doesn't have any, so don't bother talking to them. Hello to all,

----------------------------

Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: blower help suggestions

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:26:09 -0500

Dear Bill Just read your situation with your Blower , when I purchase my Austin organ I have the same horse power blower you have and it made the same roaring or growling sound needless to say it was loud , I found out that the case of the loud roar was because the bushings were warn out and what was done , I simply took it to an electrical motor shop and they fixed it, all they told me to do was to keep the motor oiled and it should have a long life , the loud roaring sound was gone

thanks john

-----------------------------------

Subject: Blower Insulation

Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 04:25:13 EST

As a professional organ builder and installer I would HIGHLY recommend that a number of steps be taken to keep from burning down your house. The blower should have both types of overload protection. It should not be put into a box with flammable sound deadening materials. Fibreglass insulation that is completely fireproof is the best way to go and the box should have a cooling fan with noise baffles of its' own. I even go so far as to put a thermal cutout in the muffler box. The reason for the above steps is a fact missed by most amatuer builders, pipe organs do not use a lot of air so the blower cannot be a self-cooled device. Be careful out there and I hope everyone has a Joyous and Safe New Year, Al Sefl p.s. A hot blower also delivers hot air to the pipes and tuning goes to hades!

--------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Insulation

Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:11:00 -0600

Good points Al, The Sanfillipo organ has a seperate cooling system for the blower room. Consistent air temperature is essential for tuning stability. This is a = subject that this list could spend a lot of time on, and probably should. I once removed an organ from a residence where the blower enclosure was made of white styrofoam insulation boards. The styrofoam eventually started to break apart, and, as a result, the entire instrument became fouled with white plastic beads. They were everywhere, in the chests, the action, the pipes.

Kurt

--------------------------------------

Subject: Re: blower oiling

From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net <mailto:tmbovard@arkansas.net>>

Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:19:05 -0600

Hello, everyone! I've "learned-by-experience" one key thing about oiling organ blowers. As a professional organ technician, I've dealt with plenty -- of all shapes and sizes. I *do* admit there could be exceptions, and I welcome further hints, advice, or corrections! Older (generally LARGER) blowers like Spencers and Kinetics run at slower speeds and have large bearings that are perfectly happy with run-of-the-mill 30 weight motor oil. They just want to *have* it!! (and they might tend to use it a bit, if they are getting up in years) Check them regularly and keep 'em full, and they'll keep on going forever. Over-oil them, and they make a mess -- but it doesn't hurt the machine in the least. Some of these beasts, of course, also have fittings requiring grease, but again the operative issue is having some of it in the bearing. Smaller high-speed blowers (often imported) require more precise lubrication. Their bearings are small and close-tolerance, so improper oiling can more easily "gum up their works". These machines require a medium-to-lightweight high grade machine oil, usually applied in small doses at relatively long intervals. Over-oiling these wastes expensive oil and also makes a mess...and the dirt that the oily mess attracts is potentially more harmful to the close-tolerance bearings of these machines.

Hope this all helps someone...!

Tim Bovard

------------------------

Subject: Re: blower lubrication

From: <TheGluePot@aol.com <mailto:TheGluePot@aol.com>>

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 02:13:11 EST

I have successfully used 30W motor oil in older blowers with ring oilers for years with no problems. The engine additives actually help the bearings because of the coating and anti-oxidation qualities. I tend to avoid multiviscosity oils as they have lighter molecular weight oils in them that may tend to slowly evaporate off leaving a sticky residue.

DO NOT USE 3-in-1 Oil on anything like a motor bearing. It has a paraffin base that eventually oxidizes and can turn into something akin to superglue. 3-in-1 on small motors is a bad idea as I have seen motion picture projectors, spring motor Victorolas, and other mechanisms that were all locked up solidly.

Sewing machine oil is very light and may be advisable on new blowers. It does not have the heavy paraffin base that hardens. I would contact the manufacturer for better information on each blower. Should the maker not still be in business then a drop of fine machine oil at the indicated oiling points should not do any harm.

I have two contracts with blowers where there are NO points to lubricate. These are motors with modern "cintered bronze oil impregnated lifetime bearings." My experience with other motors having so-called lifetime bearings is that a drop of fine machine oil where the shaft enters the housing cannot hurt and will prolong the life of the "lifetime" bearing.

Motors with grease cups may use automotive wheel bearing grease without any worries. I normally give my clients blowers so equipped a quarter turn on the grease cup once a year.

Lastly, I like to do what I call the "spin-down test." When I first take over a contract I stand next to the blower and have it shut off from full RPM no wind being used. I then take a stopwatch to record how long it takes the blower to spin down and stop. On the Marina Theatre in San Francisco, the original 1927 Spencer Orgoblo will run down in 1 minute and 24 seconds (with a belt-driven generator attached!). When the time drops more than a few seconds I give the cups a quarter turn. Why don't I just do this without

checking? Well, over lubrication can be damaging also. I figure the motor has had grease pumped into it since 1927 with no place to go. It must be extremely full by now and I do not want to add any more than is needed. These old machines are really quite forgiving as a fellow who cared for the organ ahead of me would use Vaseline Petroleum Jelly (which also hardens) and give the cup a turn every time the organ was infrequently used.

Best of wishes to all,

Al Sefl

-------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower question

Hi Jon--- Having dealt with Spencer and Kinetic blowers for half a century, here’s what I have learned about the situation you describe. I would not expect the motor to ever get off its starting windings with a completely unblocked outlet, and I would expect the current draw to = increase dramatically when at run speed IF the discharge line were to be totally opened. In my opinion, the time for a Century motor to come up to speed is based = on many variables such as bearing condition and viscosity of oil in the = bearings to name just two, to the point that I do not think one can draw any meaningful conclusions from that kind of a test. However, should the motor NOT get off its start windings on blocked = outlet, its then time to disassemble the motor and clean everything of the dried = gum and "varnish" that builds up, especially in the "necklace" area inside the = rotor assembly. In addition to lifting the brushes in run situation, the copper "necklace" by centrifugal force, must short out all the rotor = windings inside the rotor, thus turning the motor into essentially a squirrel cage rotor running by induction. Hope this helps,,,,, Cheers, ---Roc L V Rockafellow

------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower question

My 1/2 HP Spencer does quite the same thing; resists getting out of start mode. Sometimes I have to shut it down and try again. Your comment about blocking the outlet is interesting; never experimented with that. My belief is that the problem is friction in the mechanism which kicks out the starting brushes. That mech. is inside the rotor, and hard to get at to lubricate. As the motor comes up to speed, the centrifugal weights have to overcome that friction to pop out the brushes.

Ed, in Maine

---------------------------------------

Subject: Re:Some Thoughts on the Spencer blower question

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:13:40 EST

The Spencer Blower with a Century Motor (repulsion induction type) should kick out of the starter winding within just seconds. Anything over 5 seconds indicates a problem. I would not let a blower continue to run with = anything that keeps the motor from achieving speed quickly which I always expect to be under 3 seconds. One thing you NEVER do is to operate a blower with the outlet open. A blower works the hardest when it is moving the maximum = amount of air. A tight winding system in an organ should allow the blower to = fill the organ to pressure within 3 seconds. Leaks can add up to produce enough of a blower load to burn out a motor that is not dual protected for overcurrent and overheating. A blower that is too small will sometimes = take longer than 5 seconds to fill a wind system and this really strains the blower. If the centrifugal starter switch is not mechanically reliable or is binding, the motor *must* be looked after. A stuck switch will do serious motor damage and could start a fire from the excessive starting current going on and on. A clamp-on AC ammeter is something useful to check for electrical problems. When amateurs do the wiring for a blower they often fail to look at the high starting currents. Wire that is too thin will not pass enough current to let the blower come up to speed quickly. Bad contacts on a contactor will sometimes not seat well and fail to pass the right starting current. Either way the electrical problems can be checked with an ammeter and when faults = are found these *must* be addressed by someone who understands the demands = of high current motor circuits. How do you test a system for leaks? I go about it backwards. If the = blower has a snood on the intake, I put a plywood board across the inlet with a rubber seal then turn on the blower. If the blower does not jump right up to speed quickly then either the bearings need work or the starter switch mechanism needs help. For blowers without a snood I use a steel barrel up against the blower intake plate. Either way the wind flow is prevented = and the blower motor is operating at essentially no load with only the inertia of the blades, armature, and shaft to be accounted for. Lastly, turn the shaft by hand. You should be able to turn over even a large Spencer by a single hand. Anything more is excessive friction in the bearings. Keep track of spin-down times. I have one 1927 original installation 5hp Spencer that takes a full minute and a half to spin down, all the while dragging a leather belt driving a generator. When the time increases by several seconds I just give the grease cups a quarter turn and the friction goes back down to normal with spin down time rising back up = to 90 seconds. A well maintained blower should give good wind for 50 years with daily use! Al Sefl

---------------------------------------

Subject: Spencer blower problem resolved

Many thanks for the Spencer blower info and benchmark observations. It turned out that my blower had a hanging brush; it was stuck in the = retract position. Once disassembled, cleaned, and adjusted according to the Century motor manual, it seems to start fine as long as the outlet is at least partially blocked off. The 1899 patent date stamped on the motor makes the word "Century" apt! On a slightly different note, has anyone tried to replace a 1/2 HP Century motor (huge by today's standards) with a modern motor? "Continuous duty" factors may come into play here...the large size of this old motor may actually be a plus.

Thanks. Jon Fick

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower problem resolved

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:03:12 -0500 At 10:54 AM -0500 3/1/01,

Eric

---------------------------------------

-----------------------------------

Subject: Blower relay

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:53:01 -0500 Hi Lis! I am designing s new control for my blower. I need a source for a low voltage relay control for a 2 HP 220v blower.Any suggestions?

Bob Taylor

------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower relay

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:58:47 -0700

Good luck, John Volbeda

------------------------------------

Bob, W.W. Grainger, Inc. which has branches nationwide (but does not generally sell to the public, so you need to be connected with some company in order to purchase from them) ought to have virtually anything you could need for the application. Otherwise, most electrical supply houses can help you out. As an aside: don't forget that you need to include "Heater Elements" (Running Overcurrent Protection) in your blower wiring, so that if something goes drastically wrong with your blower, (like someone forgot to oil it and it locks-up!) the building doesn't burn down because the motor became a "Crispy Critter", but had long ago shut off because the Heater Elements would have tripped out. These sense when the blower is drawing too much current (like when the rotor is locked-up!) and then shut the circuit off. The best brand of Magnetic Starter for the application, BTW, is Allen-Bradley. Unfortunately, W.W.G. doesn't sell that, but the better electrical supply houses do. Faithfully,

-------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Grainger and blower relays

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:46:17 -0400

Jon Fick

-------------------------------------------------

The brushes in their bronze holder on my orgoblo anyway with it's Century motor release by centrifugal force, so it would seem to me the problem might be a sticky or intermittant binding mechanism would be to blame, OR the = motor is not getting up to speed on certain starts for some reason, maybe a bad winding? Probably the cheapest monitor might be a cheap intercom you can listen to the startup with.

Randall

---------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor

Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:55:52 -0400 Check out the following on line Spencer manual. I think it covers pretty much all sizes and has a pretty thorough repair procedure.

----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Blower Enclosure Questions

Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:07:52 -0400

I am currently in the process of designing a sound enclosure for my 1HP Spencer Orgoblo. I am thinking about using 3/4" MDF material for the enclosure, with a baffled intake (single U-shaped passage insulated on all surfaces). I am planning on using the special drill and fasteners for MDF if I can find them! My thinking is that MDF, being denser, would be superior to plywood for the enclosure. For sound insulation, I am considering using 2" Ductboard for the walls = and 1" Ductboard for lining the intake baffle surfaces. Ductboard is used by HVAC contractors for fabricating ductwork. One side is foil, cemented to compressed fiberglass. It will be cemented to the = inside of the enclosure using 3M spray adhesive. One HVAC contractor I spoke = with sprays the fiberglass side with hair spray to prevent any future fiber separation! I plan on 2" clearance all around (from any point on the spencer to the surface of the insulation). The blower will rest on several layers of felt matting. Any defects in this plan? Has anyone had experience using Ductboard for insulation? If the blower is used no more than 1-2 hours at a time, is there any danger of the Century motor overheating inside the enclosure? The blower came with an Allen Bradley starter with heaters. I plan on using 2 x 20amp breakers. Thanks for any advice.

Dave

----------------------------------------------------------

Hello all. Dave I would be concerned that the motor will not get enough cooling unless you placed the intake on the motor side of the box buuuuuut would that preheat the air going into the blower inlet and then to the organ?

Dennis

-------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:10:48 -0700

Hi Dave, I do recommend MDF for the purpose you suggest. Depending upon the amount of sound you need to damp, you may want to use a double thickness (1 1/2") of the stuff. I also recommend sealing the MDF in some manner, whether it be with lacquer, shellac, polyurethane or paint, because I have been reliably advised that MDF can outgas toxic formaldehyde-based gases, particularly when exposed to heat. Sealing solves this problem and also adds some moisture protection. With regard to keeping the blower motor cool, I would suggest making the enclosure as large as you practically can, so as to allow for some reasonable air circulation within. And you might want to try a trick I have seen used on some other blower enclosures. Sometimes a very small line (say, 3/4" diameter) is drawn off of the static trunk or reservoir) using flexible or pvc line. This is run into the blower enclosure and rigged to blow into the motor. This provides a sort of forced-air = cooling, although it's also a little bit of a leak (a very little one, though). I've never used this technique myself, but I have seen it on a number of installations we service.

Greg Rister Pipe Organ Craftsmen Pomona, California

----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Enclosure Questions

Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 23:30:53 -0400

In stead of fiberglass you might consider SONEX acoustical foam. I comes in several thicknesses, for different frequency attenuation, as well as several foam materials. One type is made of melamine foam making the material almost fireproof. A source of the material is McMaster-Carr in Atlanta.

Olliff Weldon

-----------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:56:06 EDT

HI -- I have a 5hp Spencer orgoblo, and use it almost every day, which was = previously converted to run on a five HP single phase motor by leaving the = existing long shaft motor in place (along with all it bearings) and = coupling the new motor to the rear shaft of the motor, where the generator would = have been driven when new. This required making a mounting frame for the new = motor which extended under the old motor replacing the big round spacers. This = has worked very satisfactorily for many years, at least 20 that I know of. If anyone is interested I could make a sketch of the installation for them.

Don James

----------------------------------------

Subject: Blower Motor Outboarding......

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:59:45 EDT

Randall, et al: The main problem with belt driven blowers is that the belt needs to have a constant tension system. As the belt warms and loosens it will slip. With age and stretching, it will slip. I have several clients with old DC motors on the blowers using belts. Anything over 0.5HP needs multiple belts to keep the belts from stretching. These old blowers ate belts regularly and were a pain until a system of constant tension with multiple belt pulleys was incorporated. Still they squeal and need regular periodic maintenance to keep going. Something else that happens is a loss of power from the belt friction so that a 0.5HP pulley drive will not give you a full 0.5HP. Each blower is different but while pulleys can work they generally are a poor fix for the problem. Many firms make a flexible inline coupler that will go on the end of the old motor shaft so that a new inline motor can be placed on the rear of the old motor. We used one of these flexible shaft couplings which looks like a rubber ball smashed flat between two steel plates on the 25HP motor in the Oakland Paramount and it has been running well since installed on the blower in 1965 at the SF Avenue. One other item of note, OSHA standards state that ALL belt driven machines must have a belt guard.

Best wishes to all, Al Sefl

------------------------------------

Subject: Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:30:59 -0500

I have acquired a 1HP Spencer blower with Century repulsion motor for my residence instrument. It came with an Allen-Bradley control box. The instrument was removed from a church and was originally installed by an professional organ builder. The heaters that were installed were size W56, which I think are rated at about 11 amps or so, full load (I don't have = the box with me at the moment). But the full load current of the motor is only 5.6 amps at 220 volts, and about 12 amps at 110 volts. I would have though from reading AB literature that the protection heaters should be rated = very closely to the motor full load current (yes, I know there are some compensation factors involved). A second blower from the same organ was also a Spencer, and was at least = two horse, maybe 3hp, single phase. The control box for that blower had W62 heaters, rated at 14+ amps full load. What am I missing here? Both boxes seem to have heaters much larger than needed, thus failing to offer any real protection. One other question: neither blower was "grounded". I measured >40meg from hot to frame on my Century motor. So I chose to connect the ground (bare) to the motor frame for protection. I did NOT connect a neutral to the CENTER two wires that are connected together for 240 volt operation. Thanks, Dave McClellan

---------------------------------

Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:35:28 -0600

I am sure you will get a lot of different opinions on your question. I am an electrical contractor with 30 years experience so my answer is not without some experience and training. Motors have a name plate rating and a duty factor percentage. The name plate FLA (full load amps) is the maximum the motor should be allowed to draw. On newer motors, there is a safety margin built in which is the duty factor. If your motor has a FLA of let's say 10 amps, and a duty factor of 1.0, your heaters should be sized for 10 amps. If the duty factor is 1.10, then you could draw 10 amps plus 10% over that, or 11 amps. Heaters already compensate for inrush current so you do not need to allow for starting surge when you size the heater. If you go to an Allen Bradley dealer, or look on AB's webpage, match the heaters to the full-load motor amps and you will be safe. The heaters you are describing are dangerously over-rated.

------------------------------------

All of the above are part of a normal electrically driven pipe organ. The circuit breaker limits total 'branch' (the individual blower motor in this case) maximum current. Usually, it is rated much higher than the total current of the motor. It is a 'fast trip' type of switch, which will turn off if total current is exceeded. The 'heaters' are 'slow-trip' breakers which will allow the motor to exceed its rated running current for a short time, as in starting or when a heavy demand is made on the blower. If the heavy load stays there too long, the heaters will cause the motor starter to trip. The 'magnetic starter' is simply a magnetically-operated relay = to allow the blower motor to be started from a remote location without having to make the heavy motor supply leads too long. Usually, the starter is located within about 10' of the motor. It's control leads may be as long as necessary. If I have left anything out or (as is usual) not made myself clear, please let me know. Bob, who is also a retired electrician

--------------------------------

The "heaters" are a thermo device inside the Magnetic Starter which is designed to operate within a very small "band" of temperature tolerance. The purpose in doing so is that if the blower is somehow overloaded or stalled, then the motor will draw more current than normal, and thus causing the thermal protection linkage inside the Starter to disconnect. This is what difference a "Starter" from a Relay -the addition of the Thermal Relay portion, which is installed beneath the relay in the same enclosure. > Also, re "Magnetic" starters - does that imply more than one type of > starter? In the olden days, large HP motors required "staged" starting before electrical utilities had sufficient current on their electrical grids to handle the inrush current of "across-the-line" starting of these behemoths. There were huge boxes adjacent to the motors with large levers and a series of "notches" that this lever was designed to be placed into in succession. Each of these positions, except the last had a series of resistors, designed to limit this inrush current would be introduced . As the motor reached a certain R.P.M., the manual starter mechanism would be "shifted" forward, almost like a manual transmission, into less and less resistance until finally the motor reached its rated speed and the resistance across the circuit was eliminated altogether. It is quite an experience to start one of these old monsters. They were mostly found in either rural installations far from the generating plant or on the older D.C. Municipal systems which existed in the early days of distributed electrical systems. Quite unlike nowadays where the organist merely pushes a button, waits a second or two for the wind to come up, and begins to play!

---------------------------------------------

Hi, Randall -- Maybe this will clarify it a bit. Fuses and ckt breakers protect from sudden, catastrophic overcurrents. (a hot wire somewhere broke suddenly = and came to rest against a grounded part). A direct short circuit, if you will, or close to it. The Heaters in a magnetic starter protect against *overload* protection -- the motor, for some reason, is working too hard, and gradually getting hotter and hotter and gradually trying to suck even more electricity than it should. The key word is "gradually". The heaters function as a slow-acting safety cutoff that can sense the gradually increasing current flow and cut it off entirely before everything melts down to the point where the fuses or ckt breakers would kick in. Redundancy is a rather good idea with such things, I think...<g>! Hope this helps -- Tim

-----------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:45:26 EST